Aaron: "Would you agree that if an RPG shop can accomplish web services
with a
reasonable amount of effort that they should do so to stay in a single
language environment? That is what I am promoting."
IIRC (as i get older the memory fails more often ;) ), i attended a
session at COMMON. in V6R1 there *is* a way to expose RPG as a web
service via the "Service Director" for the IBM i OS. there's like 3 steps
involved in the admin panel that you have to accomplish (very simple point
and click!) to implement them....so basically this *is* doable and very
easy (from my point of view) and should resolve this particular point of
argument in this thread.
Thanks,
Tommy Holden
From:
"Aaron Bartell" <aaronbartell@xxxxxxxxx>
To:
"Websphere Development Studio Client for iSeries" <wdsci-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date:
04/26/2008 11:28 PM
Subject:
Re: [WDSCI-L] "EGL is the easiest langauge to learn" - Joe Pluta was->
Problem updating Rational Developer for System i for SOA Construction
Other than the app server, you're wrong on every point of this. I don't
use connection pooling, because I call RPG business logic.
Do you honestly think people are going to stick with RPG when they start
adopting EGL? Anytime you can have a primary language used throughout the
UI,controller, and DB layers you gain huge benefits of maintenance and
debugging ease. While your approach is great for reusing existing logic,
I
would guess that many would only want this to be a stepping stone to a
more
full EGL adoption. Just my prediction.
You seem to think I'm replacing RPG, and I have no idea where you got
that
concept.
You're filling a role with another language that RPG could play - that's
all
I am saying. I actually don't mind a thin Java veneer over RPG when it
doesn't require Java/EGL compilation or learning Java/EGL as a language.
Frankly, the JSP II approach of yours that I have seen is quite nice with
one exception - you have to know JSP. Imagine if you would take out that
requirement and simply add some meta data coming from the RPG side so the
JSP knew how to render vs. the RPG programmer needing to know how to code
a
new language syntax (i.e. JSP). I am guessing the same could be written
in
EGL. And you don't need to tell me, I will say it for you "JSP is simple,
Aaron why don't you just get out of the kitchen if you don't know how to
program and if you hate Java".
You've never written client/server code, have you?
Yes I have written a fair amount of client server code, and yes I
understand
tiered separation of concern.
The best tool for HTTP messaging is Java.
For a Java shop, yes, for an RPG shop, no. We will have to agree to
disagree.
Anyway, there are no "hidden fields" because the server logic doesn't
know
about the user interface.
I don't think we are talking about the same thing here. You seem to be
talking about something other than browser based apps which IS what I was
talking about. Correct me if I am wrong, but when EGL is used to build
browser pages it uses the JSF implementation, and if that is true then I
know it is using hidden fields. Again, I have nothing against hidden
fields.
If you're not doing industry compliant, you don't do SOAP. In fact, most
non-web service environments no longer use XML at all, instead they use
JSON, because it's more efficient. Does your RPG-XML suite do JSON?
Please know you are speaking from your experiences which does not cover a
huge spectrum of web service usage. I am speaking from my experiences
which
also doesn't cover ever spectrum of usage. I have never heard of JSON
used
outside of AJAX/browser scenarios. JSON and AJAX are a fraction of what
web
services have become. And no, RPG-XML Suite doesn't currently do JSON
though I have thought about adding it. And on the same note, of all the
web
services development I do on a near daily basis there is only a fraction
that uses SOAP. What happens to the EGL tooling when something doesn't
conform exactly to how IBM expects it to be? I am guessing you have to
start writing a lot more code. Not a big deal if you have good EGL/Java
developers and that is your mainstay language, but if you are an RPG shop
all of a sudden you start asking yourself "why did we go with EGL if we
have
to write all this plumbing anyway?"
Also, how do you code a request? Here's a very simple SOAP request:
In EGL, I handle the request by writing this as an EGL service:
I am not going to get into a peeing match with you Joe. I already told
you
the RPG approach will take many more steps. I even provided you a 15
minute
video tutorial (sorry I didn't have time to put audio with it - was last
minute). What else do you want? I specifically said it is a huge
advantage
for an RPG shop to use RPG for web services even if it takes them more
lines
of code. I would guess you disagree with that sentiment so let's agree to
disagree.
You still miss the point here. There's no "new business logic language".
Even IBM calls it a business logic language, and it is new, so I am
putting
those two together to get "new business logic language".
This URL states the following:
ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/software/rational/web/whitepapers/Accelerate_delivery_RBDe.pdf
"At the most basic level, EGL is a procedural programming language that
enterprise-level or business-oriented developers can use to implement
applications quickly...Business logic written in EGL will be transformed
into lower-level code."
If I understand correctly, you currenlty use WDSC to generate the WSDL
and
then RPG to write the code and then your XML-Suite to actually parse the
XML. I use RDi-SOA, and I can do the whole thing from end to end.
WDSC is buggy with the XML/XSD/WSDL tooling. I use the latest *free*
version of Eclipse (download the J2EE version to get the WTP stuff
included). I am not sure where you were going with that statement. You
use
a tool, I use a tool.
To me, it seems you are completely locked into a model that requires RPG
and only RPG. You try to promote RPG by itself as some sotr of better
solution, like the folks that
promote SQL only, or Java only, or whatever. And if I read what you're
writing correctly, it's not really pure RPG - you're promoting RPG and
your
proprietary programs (I say proprietary because I assume you don't provide
the source code for your programs).
Would you agree that if an RPG shop can accomplish web services with a
reasonable amount of effort that they should do so to stay in a single
language environment? That is what I am promoting. In the same breath I
would tell a .NET developer in a strictly .NET shop to not adopt a small
Java tier in their mix if they didn't have to because it makes their
software stack less fluid. And btw, I don't give the source to RPG-XML
Suite, did IBM give you the source to EGL or RDi-SOA?
I've never said anything about using EGL to replace existing RPG! There
you go putting words in my mouth! I have consistently said to use EGL in
conjunction with RPG, thus my love of RDi-SOA, since it provides both in a
single, integrated environment.
You aren't understanding what I am saying. I believe an RPG shop should
have due diligence done to have RPG attempt to accomplish a business need
before moving on to the latest cool looking technology/language. Do you
disagree with that logic?
Learn how fast you can leverage your RPG skills without having to learn
Java or XML or PHP or indeed anything other than the incredibly simple EGL
syntax.
Answer me this question: Do you believe EGL is a new language from IBM? I
think you are trying to trivialize the adoption of it. Why - I have no
idea.
So this entire multi-tiered, geographically disparate application is
written entirely in EGL and RPG. No other tools, no other third-party
products.
Except for the need to purchase RDi-SOA. And to upgrade from the free
version of WAS Express after you have outgrown it. Or is WAS 6.1 free
now?
Aaron Bartell
http://mowyourlawn.com
midrange.com
