RE: OO benefits? (was Re: Fast400 Value to iSeries community is less than zero ) -- MIDRANGE-L

I would add:  the question probably hinges on what EXACTLY *IS* possible.
The theory being the inverse of my previous argument.  If "affordable and as
easy as green-screen was possible", it would already exist.

If you buy my argument that LANSA, MRC, BCD, Cool, Seagull, Jacada, (yada,
yada, yada...;-) DON'T exhibit these qualities and/or are NOT
"affordable" --> it must not be possible.  If it was possible, then these
ISVs would be marketing it already.  (OR they just don't see a market where
I see one, but that's pretty hard to believe.)


Let me save a lot of time arguing:  the proof is in the pudding.  I can
disprove the argument, totally and completely, only by providing a product
that does this.  What I'm doing is "market research" on the cheap.

BTW, if that's a conflict of interest with your employer, Janet, I'm willing
to deal.


(Now, off to tilt with some more windmills:  slay the myth of the advantages
of OSS development methodology...  I don't know if I'm brave, and/or just
plain foolhardy... LOL...!)


jt


"Have a GREAT day...!  And a BETTER ONE TOMORROW~~~:-)" (sm)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: midrange-l-admin@midrange.com
> [mailto:midrange-l-admin@midrange.com]On Behalf Of jt
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:53 PM
> To: midrange-l@midrange.com
> Subject: RE: OO benefits? (was Re: Fast400 Value to iSeries community is
> less than zero )
>
>
> Janet, Joe
>
> Thank you both for your replies.
>
> I wouldn't phrase it that way, myself, Joe.  My reply will phrase it
> somewhat differently, but will end up saying a lot of the same things.
>
> However, Joe, I think it pays to keep in mind what Georges Gurdjieff said
> regarding his experience teaching his philosophy and religion:
> The biggest
> problem he had was in convincing folks that what they were hearing was
> ACTUALLY SOMETHING NEW.
>
> Reminds me of the recent discussion of DHTML.  Sure, DHTML is
> just HTML with
> a few extra opcodes.  Yet it IS something new, because it opens
> up whole new
> categories of client software.  A POV thing.  So I don't take Janet's
> comments quite so personally.
>
>
> My objection to Janet's post isn't the promotion of LANSA, and that would
> have gotten by me if you hadn't astutely pointed it out, Joe.  And she did
> add "but I know people using almost every tool listed on that
> site who claim
> their tool of choice is productive and successfully shields them from the
> complexity underneath."  Janet may, or may not, be expressing her (or her
> employer's) personal preference too much.  Matters little, to me.
>
>
> But, IMHO, your objections, Joe, to bloatware and turning "the
> iSeries into
> a big, clunky ODBC server" are EXTREMELY pointed.
>
> But I admit, I took a little personal offense at statements like "there a
> number of people on this list whose lust after architectural elegance and
> purity will always lead them to disdain such tools".  I don't lust after
> things much, but least of all things would be architectural elegance and
> purity.  I've worked with, for, and over, many many FPP (prima-donna
> programmers).  I have no use for that attitude, so find it funny someone
> would insinuite that ***I am one***.  (I think we both assumed Janet was
> referring to us, personally, and she can always say she wasn't.)
>
>
> But rather than emphasize things which I took personally, let me
> get to the
> meat of the matter.  Janet, you wrote "My question is whether our goal
> should be the ability to quickly build robust business solutions that
> support flexible deployment models (which I continue to assert is possible
> and affordable today)".  It is the assertion which is patently
> false.  I say
> that, knowing that possible and affordable are two terms
> inextricably linked
> to POV.
>
> Affordable?  I categorically state that it's not.
>
> Possible?  I think you avoided my original question, which was "What I'm
> looking for is C/S and Webprogramming that's as easy as green-screen."  I
> categorically state that the existing tools are not.
>
>
> I haven't studied LANSA as close as I've studied Synon/Cool.  And
> it's been
> years since I worked with Synon.
>
> I "categorically state" these things, even though I haven't become as
> knowledgable as you are, Janet, based on empirical evidence:  If existing
> tools met these two requirements, they'd be near-universal.  The market
> isn't stupid.  The existing tools are.  Affordable and as easy as
> green-screen doesn't exist, or it'd be on every green-screen app, in every
> company that pays the interactive "tax".
>
>
> I rest my case.
>
>
> But I will add that I think it's awful daggone funny to "hear" the comment
> "And for those of you that have moved on from RPG and DDS, into the brave
> new world of Java and XML"...
>
> Going with Java and XML is not particularly brave, these days, because
> that's taking a stand that just about the entire industry supports.  You
> wanna learn the meaning of the word "brave", Janet...?  Try
> standing up and
> claiming that RPG and DDS are ABSOLUTELY THE BEST TOOLS to create
> ***real-world business apps***.  Now THAT takes REAL bravery,
> Janet, in this
> day and age.  Few will take that stand, even if they DO believe in it.
> Doesn't pay to buck the conventional wisdom, in most cases...
>
>
> Thanks again to both of you.  Tried to be gentle in my criticisms...  Look
> forward to any follow-ups (if any).
>
> jt
>
>
> "Have a GREAT day...!  And a BETTER ONE TOMORROW~~~:-)" (sm)
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: midrange-l-admin@midrange.com
> > [mailto:midrange-l-admin@midrange.com]On Behalf Of Joe Pluta
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:54 PM
> > To: midrange-l@midrange.com
> > Subject: RE: OO benefits? (was Re: Fast400 Value to iSeries community is
> > less than zero )
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: jkrueger@andrewscg.com
> > >
> > > Of course there a number of people on this list
> > > whose lust after
> > > architectural elegance and purity will always lead them to
> > > disdain such tools;
> > > after all, if business programming was actually easy, who would
> > > need programming
> > > gurus???
> >
> > Oh, this is an inflammatory and self-serving comment if ever I saw one.
> > Those of us who actually have published freeware and devoted
> > countless hours
> > to the propagation of architecture which you disdainfully call
> > "elegant and
> > pure", but which we call "correct", would be offended were the
> motivation
> > not so transparent.
> >
> > Some people think the move towards bloatware is hastened by code
> > generators
> > such as LANSA; that argument has been overdone here and
> > elsewhere, mostly by
> > me.  It is indeed my opinion that the entire software
> development process
> > needs to be rethought before we turn the iSeries into a big, clunky ODBC
> > server.  Then there are those who wish to simply fulfill RFPs
> > with no regard
> > to the direction of the platform.  Each type of consultant has
> their place
> > in the world.
> >
> > But to intimate that we who promote proper architecture are doing
> > it solely
> > to keep ourselves in business, while in the nearly the same
> > breath promoting
> > your favorite code generator, smacks just a bit of "she doth protest too
> > much".
> >
> > Joe Pluta
> > Architect and Proud Of It
> > www.plutabrothers.com
> > Adapting Tomorrow's Architectures to Today's Applications
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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>
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