RE: OO benefits? (was Re: Fast400 Value to iSeries community is less than zero )

Janet,

I don't see where you got the idea your opinions offended me, when in actual
fact, I just disagreed with some of them.  Nobody wrote anything that
implied only "IBM products are worth evaluating", since both Joe and I are
interested in producing add-ons.  Precisely because IBM products are found
wanting, also.

Contrary to the impression I left you with, I think the tools that are out
there are a VAST improvement on what IBM offers.  I said I'd check into the
link you provided on these tools, and I will.


I do not think they fill the existing needs of the market, however.  ICBW.


But, to boil the thing down to one point, you wrote "I just don't happen to
believe that business programmers should need to be concerned with the
underlying structure at the level you guys are debating..."  The reason Joe
and I are debating them is PRECISELY so business programmers won't have to.
So we both agree with you on that point.  You said that was your only point,
and I know Joe wouldn't disagree with that, and I categorically state that I
DO agree with you.

I **SURE** didn't intend to imply that you were solely expressing the views
of your employer, in my comment above.  I just said that IF this is an
issue, I'd like to find a work-around.  You're in the business of selling
your expertise, and you give it away all the time, on this list and
elsewhere.  I could see a significant problem, for you, by my asking your
opinions.  I was just saying I could see this as a problem, and I would seek
a way to resolve it, if there is any.

I'm not sure I made that point very clear...


I'm NOT going to apologize, if I appeared disrespectful of your years of
experience (not to mention your years of service to the Community, as well).
If that happened, it is a combination of what I wrote and how you
interpreted it.  Moreover, I would then have to ask for an apology for your
previous comments, and your insinuation here that Joe and I have "wasted"
your time.  There are enough chicken-and-egg situations, so that my
apologizing would be pointless.


Makes no difference to me if you want to take the time out to discuss this
or not.  But I'd hope you could at least recognize that we, all three, agree
on the fundamental point.  Business programmers should be shielded from the
complexities involved in C/S and Web programming.  Joe has already stated
that.  I am now stating that I agree.


The question remains, what are some different ways of doing that...?  What
are some pros and cons...?  What level do you want to discuss these issues
at?  This discussion necessarily starts from the POV that what exists can be
improved on...  Not that existing products are, by implication, worthless.
I think this is something I don't communicate well...

If you don't care to, or don't have time to, answer these kinds of
questions.. Well, maybe others will.  It is PRECISELY because I VALUE your
experience, knowledge and opinions, and VALUE them as being at the top of
the heap, that I hope to engage you in this discussion.  I don't want to
cause you any problems with possible conflicts of interest, though.

I'm not apologizing, but I think it'd be a shame if I had somehow given you
some other impression.  I definitely respect your views, and would have
thought that went without saying (and in spite of anything I might
inadvertantly say, to imply otherwise).


jt


> -----Original Message-----
> From: midrange-l-admin@midrange.com
> [mailto:midrange-l-admin@midrange.com]On Behalf Of
> jkrueger@andrewscg.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:04 PM
> To: midrange-l@midrange.com
> Subject: RE: OO benefits? (was Re: Fast400 Value to iSeries community is
> less than zero )
>
>
> >> BTW, if that's a conflict of interest with your employer,
> Janet, I'm willing
> to deal.
>
> My employer has absolutely no business relationship in place with
> LANSA, and
> neither do I.  I'm sorry my opinions offend you, and that you're
> so mired in
> your belief that only IBM products are worth evaluating that
> you're not willing
> to believe real solutions exist.
>
> It's your loss.
>
> I'm not going to waste my time, or more space on this list,
> arguing about it.
>
> I do think some of the application architectures Joe and others
> tout are good
> things;  I spent a good portion of my career at IBM helping
> design, build, and
> deliver enablers for those architectures.  I just don't happen to
> believe that
> business programmers should need to be concerned with the
> underlying structure
> at the level you guys are debating...
>
> That was my only point.
>
> Janet Krueger
> Andrews Consulting Group
>
>
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