|
Janet, Joe Thank you both for your replies. I wouldn't phrase it that way, myself, Joe. My reply will phrase it somewhat differently, but will end up saying a lot of the same things. However, Joe, I think it pays to keep in mind what Georges Gurdjieff said regarding his experience teaching his philosophy and religion: The biggest problem he had was in convincing folks that what they were hearing was ACTUALLY SOMETHING NEW. Reminds me of the recent discussion of DHTML. Sure, DHTML is just HTML with a few extra opcodes. Yet it IS something new, because it opens up whole new categories of client software. A POV thing. So I don't take Janet's comments quite so personally. My objection to Janet's post isn't the promotion of LANSA, and that would have gotten by me if you hadn't astutely pointed it out, Joe. And she did add "but I know people using almost every tool listed on that site who claim their tool of choice is productive and successfully shields them from the complexity underneath." Janet may, or may not, be expressing her (or her employer's) personal preference too much. Matters little, to me. But, IMHO, your objections, Joe, to bloatware and turning "the iSeries into a big, clunky ODBC server" are EXTREMELY pointed. But I admit, I took a little personal offense at statements like "there a number of people on this list whose lust after architectural elegance and purity will always lead them to disdain such tools". I don't lust after things much, but least of all things would be architectural elegance and purity. I've worked with, for, and over, many many FPP (prima-donna programmers). I have no use for that attitude, so find it funny someone would insinuite that ***I am one***. (I think we both assumed Janet was referring to us, personally, and she can always say she wasn't.) But rather than emphasize things which I took personally, let me get to the meat of the matter. Janet, you wrote "My question is whether our goal should be the ability to quickly build robust business solutions that support flexible deployment models (which I continue to assert is possible and affordable today)". It is the assertion which is patently false. I say that, knowing that possible and affordable are two terms inextricably linked to POV. Affordable? I categorically state that it's not. Possible? I think you avoided my original question, which was "What I'm looking for is C/S and Webprogramming that's as easy as green-screen." I categorically state that the existing tools are not. I haven't studied LANSA as close as I've studied Synon/Cool. And it's been years since I worked with Synon. I "categorically state" these things, even though I haven't become as knowledgable as you are, Janet, based on empirical evidence: If existing tools met these two requirements, they'd be near-universal. The market isn't stupid. The existing tools are. Affordable and as easy as green-screen doesn't exist, or it'd be on every green-screen app, in every company that pays the interactive "tax". I rest my case. But I will add that I think it's awful daggone funny to "hear" the comment "And for those of you that have moved on from RPG and DDS, into the brave new world of Java and XML"... Going with Java and XML is not particularly brave, these days, because that's taking a stand that just about the entire industry supports. You wanna learn the meaning of the word "brave", Janet...? Try standing up and claiming that RPG and DDS are ABSOLUTELY THE BEST TOOLS to create ***real-world business apps***. Now THAT takes REAL bravery, Janet, in this day and age. Few will take that stand, even if they DO believe in it. Doesn't pay to buck the conventional wisdom, in most cases... Thanks again to both of you. Tried to be gentle in my criticisms... Look forward to any follow-ups (if any). jt "Have a GREAT day...! And a BETTER ONE TOMORROW~~~:-)" (sm) > -----Original Message----- > From: midrange-l-admin@midrange.com > [mailto:midrange-l-admin@midrange.com]On Behalf Of Joe Pluta > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:54 PM > To: midrange-l@midrange.com > Subject: RE: OO benefits? (was Re: Fast400 Value to iSeries community is > less than zero ) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jkrueger@andrewscg.com > > > > Of course there a number of people on this list > > whose lust after > > architectural elegance and purity will always lead them to > > disdain such tools; > > after all, if business programming was actually easy, who would > > need programming > > gurus??? > > Oh, this is an inflammatory and self-serving comment if ever I saw one. > Those of us who actually have published freeware and devoted > countless hours > to the propagation of architecture which you disdainfully call > "elegant and > pure", but which we call "correct", would be offended were the motivation > not so transparent. > > Some people think the move towards bloatware is hastened by code > generators > such as LANSA; that argument has been overdone here and > elsewhere, mostly by > me. It is indeed my opinion that the entire software development process > needs to be rethought before we turn the iSeries into a big, clunky ODBC > server. Then there are those who wish to simply fulfill RFPs > with no regard > to the direction of the platform. Each type of consultant has their place > in the world. > > But to intimate that we who promote proper architecture are doing > it solely > to keep ourselves in business, while in the nearly the same > breath promoting > your favorite code generator, smacks just a bit of "she doth protest too > much". > > Joe Pluta > Architect and Proud Of It > www.plutabrothers.com > Adapting Tomorrow's Architectures to Today's Applications > > _______________________________________________ > This is the Midrange Systems Technical Discussion (MIDRANGE-L) > mailing list > To post a message email: MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, > visit: http://lists.midrange.com/cgi-bin/listinfo/midrange-l > or email: MIDRANGE-L-request@midrange.com > Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives > at http://archive.midrange.com/midrange-l. >
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
This mailing list archive is Copyright 1997-2024 by midrange.com and David Gibbs as a compilation work. Use of the archive is restricted to research of a business or technical nature. Any other uses are prohibited. Full details are available on our policy page. If you have questions about this, please contact [javascript protected email address].
Operating expenses for this site are earned using the Amazon Associate program and Google Adsense.