RE: OO benefits? (was Re: Fast400 Value to iSeries community is less than zero )

Janet, Joe

Thank you both for your replies.

I wouldn't phrase it that way, myself, Joe.  My reply will phrase it
somewhat differently, but will end up saying a lot of the same things.

However, Joe, I think it pays to keep in mind what Georges Gurdjieff said
regarding his experience teaching his philosophy and religion:  The biggest
problem he had was in convincing folks that what they were hearing was
ACTUALLY SOMETHING NEW.

Reminds me of the recent discussion of DHTML.  Sure, DHTML is just HTML with
a few extra opcodes.  Yet it IS something new, because it opens up whole new
categories of client software.  A POV thing.  So I don't take Janet's
comments quite so personally.


My objection to Janet's post isn't the promotion of LANSA, and that would
have gotten by me if you hadn't astutely pointed it out, Joe.  And she did
add "but I know people using almost every tool listed on that site who claim
their tool of choice is productive and successfully shields them from the
complexity underneath."  Janet may, or may not, be expressing her (or her
employer's) personal preference too much.  Matters little, to me.


But, IMHO, your objections, Joe, to bloatware and turning "the iSeries into
a big, clunky ODBC server" are EXTREMELY pointed.

But I admit, I took a little personal offense at statements like "there a
number of people on this list whose lust after architectural elegance and
purity will always lead them to disdain such tools".  I don't lust after
things much, but least of all things would be architectural elegance and
purity.  I've worked with, for, and over, many many FPP (prima-donna
programmers).  I have no use for that attitude, so find it funny someone
would insinuite that ***I am one***.  (I think we both assumed Janet was
referring to us, personally, and she can always say she wasn't.)


But rather than emphasize things which I took personally, let me get to the
meat of the matter.  Janet, you wrote "My question is whether our goal
should be the ability to quickly build robust business solutions that
support flexible deployment models (which I continue to assert is possible
and affordable today)".  It is the assertion which is patently false.  I say
that, knowing that possible and affordable are two terms inextricably linked
to POV.

Affordable?  I categorically state that it's not.

Possible?  I think you avoided my original question, which was "What I'm
looking for is C/S and Webprogramming that's as easy as green-screen."  I
categorically state that the existing tools are not.


I haven't studied LANSA as close as I've studied Synon/Cool.  And it's been
years since I worked with Synon.

I "categorically state" these things, even though I haven't become as
knowledgable as you are, Janet, based on empirical evidence:  If existing
tools met these two requirements, they'd be near-universal.  The market
isn't stupid.  The existing tools are.  Affordable and as easy as
green-screen doesn't exist, or it'd be on every green-screen app, in every
company that pays the interactive "tax".


I rest my case.


But I will add that I think it's awful daggone funny to "hear" the comment
"And for those of you that have moved on from RPG and DDS, into the brave
new world of Java and XML"...

Going with Java and XML is not particularly brave, these days, because
that's taking a stand that just about the entire industry supports.  You
wanna learn the meaning of the word "brave", Janet...?  Try standing up and
claiming that RPG and DDS are ABSOLUTELY THE BEST TOOLS to create
***real-world business apps***.  Now THAT takes REAL bravery, Janet, in this
day and age.  Few will take that stand, even if they DO believe in it.
Doesn't pay to buck the conventional wisdom, in most cases...


Thanks again to both of you.  Tried to be gentle in my criticisms...  Look
forward to any follow-ups (if any).

jt


"Have a GREAT day...!  And a BETTER ONE TOMORROW~~~:-)" (sm)



> -----Original Message-----
> From: midrange-l-admin@midrange.com
> [mailto:midrange-l-admin@midrange.com]On Behalf Of Joe Pluta
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:54 PM
> To: midrange-l@midrange.com
> Subject: RE: OO benefits? (was Re: Fast400 Value to iSeries community is
> less than zero )
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: jkrueger@andrewscg.com
> >
> > Of course there a number of people on this list
> > whose lust after
> > architectural elegance and purity will always lead them to
> > disdain such tools;
> > after all, if business programming was actually easy, who would
> > need programming
> > gurus???
>
> Oh, this is an inflammatory and self-serving comment if ever I saw one.
> Those of us who actually have published freeware and devoted
> countless hours
> to the propagation of architecture which you disdainfully call
> "elegant and
> pure", but which we call "correct", would be offended were the motivation
> not so transparent.
>
> Some people think the move towards bloatware is hastened by code
> generators
> such as LANSA; that argument has been overdone here and
> elsewhere, mostly by
> me.  It is indeed my opinion that the entire software development process
> needs to be rethought before we turn the iSeries into a big, clunky ODBC
> server.  Then there are those who wish to simply fulfill RFPs
> with no regard
> to the direction of the platform.  Each type of consultant has their place
> in the world.
>
> But to intimate that we who promote proper architecture are doing
> it solely
> to keep ourselves in business, while in the nearly the same
> breath promoting
> your favorite code generator, smacks just a bit of "she doth protest too
> much".
>
> Joe Pluta
> Architect and Proud Of It
> www.plutabrothers.com
> Adapting Tomorrow's Architectures to Today's Applications
>
> _______________________________________________
> This is the Midrange Systems Technical Discussion (MIDRANGE-L)
> mailing list
> To post a message email: MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
> visit: http://lists.midrange.com/cgi-bin/listinfo/midrange-l
> or email: MIDRANGE-L-request@midrange.com
> Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
> at http://archive.midrange.com/midrange-l.
>