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We have a slightly different problem when it comes to ALF, but it is related. Our company has been purchased by a much larger company who doesn't use MAPICS. They don't really balk at the ALF. Our problem is we are growing and are stuck right now with a 40 user license that is not concurrent. We looked into getting more licenses and received an expensive quote for MAPICS essentials (concurrent licenses will really make more sense in our environment). Now essentials will definitely be a really nice addition to our environment. I am having trouble getting management to bite off on Essentials. I believe that the essentials quote may be reasonable, but it is still so large that it remains indefinitely on the "management will decide someday" plate. I like the Iseries/ Mapics solution because can be easily administered, it is stable, and seems to have a low TCO- even when you factor in the ALF. Ted -----Original Message----- From: Konrad Underkofler [mailto:kdunderk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:39 AM To: MAPICS ERP System Discussion Subject: RE: ALF Expense Analysis Jeff, Sorry you feel that way, and as usual coming from a consultant it is not very pointed or accurate. First, an internet user group is intended for users to share experience, it is not intended for consultants to sell their services. I personally do not want to hear glowing reports about how new applications will make life so much easier. I want to know what is going on with the product unfiltered by people that make their living off of it. Since MAPICS themselves chose to not publicize bad fixes, install experiences, cd apply issues this is the only location to find out about them. If that comes across as bashing so be it. You make your living from MAPICS, we make our living using MAPICS and that is quite a difference. Second, I am not frustrated about MAPICS. Our implementation is stable with a small group of known issues. I consider our ALF and support fees fair. I believe that the company is well run and has made the correct choice to let MAPICS XA run its course. It keeps them profitable and provides some extra function, through add on applications, for those customers that absolutely have to have it or are not able to move to another product. I wish they had picked up on their paid for study that suggested they offer a license for customers that do not wish to have support or future releases at a lower price. All legacy systems have this issue and most ERP systems are legacy these days. Third, one thing MAPICS does need to do is examine their fix strategy and test process. My uncertain feelings about fix quality and reluctance about applying fixes combined with the local fixes we have had to do to keep MAPICS operating have limited our ability to migrate to any new version of MAPICS in the future. If you wish to be a use to the group other than saying "costing requires 3 to 5 days of consulting" how about reviewing the 20 - 30 fixes a week and letting us know which ones seem sound and which ones may cause problems. Fourth, MAPICS needs to review the affiliate system. They are so driven by new customer, new application revenue that they have vanished over the past three years as R7 has had its status bounce up and down. Our former rep is selling medical products, our current rep is a refugee from Baan that answers email every three months or so. Fifth, if MAPICS wants to continue in business they need to establish a better relationship with customers. This may involve establishing an internal consulting force that can help customers plan and potentially migrate to future MAPICS or other solutions. Sorry, I cannot vouch for three things MAPICS XA does that are superior to other competing ERP systems. If you are interested in that I suggest you check MAPICS Inc. website. Maybe Dale can help with this one. Regards Konrad -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Snyder [mailto:jeffreygsnyder@xxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Mon 11/10/2003 5:49 AM To: mapics-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx Cc: Subject: RE: ALF Expense Analysis Konrad, My observation is that you bash Mapics 9 of 10 postings. Not real helpful. Let me ask you this: Can post just 3 things about Mapics you like above other ERP solutions? From: "Konrad Underkofler" <KDUNDERK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Reply-To: MAPICS ERP System Discussion <MAPICS-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "MAPICS ERP System Discussion" <MAPICS-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: RE: ALF Expense Analysis Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 22:55:12 -0500 Jeff, I am glad I never cease to amaze you. It is sort of tough to classify my reaction whenever I read one of your posts. I guess I just expect more from MAPICS than you do being a paying customer. Regards Konrad -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Snyder [mailto:jeffreygsnyder@xxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Fri 11/7/2003 8:36 PM To: mapics-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx Cc: Subject: RE: ALF Expense Analysis Always good to hear at least one customer out there is happy with MAPICS Sometimes i get sooo fustrated from all the bashing on this thread...maybe the grass just looks greener on the other side ??? Thanks again Dale, for the breath of fresh air. Konrad never ceases to amaze me. Jeff Snyder, CPIM Mapics Consultant From: DaleGindlesperger@xxxxxxxxxxx Reply-To: MAPICS ERP System Discussion <MAPICS-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: MAPICS ERP System Discussion <MAPICS-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: RE: ALF Expense Analysis Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:43:10 -0500 Hi Dale, Yeah, I think the ALF is pretty steep myself - it's easily the largest single item in my budget. But I think I still get decent value for it, especially as I plan on upgrading to R7 as soon as they finish CSM. We've used Browser since 1999, and we are increasing our usage, and at least it's a lot more stable than it used to be. Of course, that could be because of the newer versions of Winwoes being a little better than the old versions. I was initally concerned about the mismash of languages, as Konrad mentioned (I think he missed a couple, like PowerBuilder for those of us running MDCC, and probably some others), but they seem to work fine. I am, however, very much looking forward to running in a full Java environment on R7.x when we convert. One thing to keep in mind is that our ALFs don't just fund existing application enhancements. They also fund e:Info and the folks at the response line, which is worth a lot to some of us. It's great to get a speedy response via e-mail, and generally fast response via phone when I or my people need to talk to a human bean on something weird that is happening. There is also continuing enhancement to some older modules, like the Offline Shipping Enhancement, and such. Also, it costs a lot to fund R&D for the new hardware, modules, and languages (WebSphere and such). On a tangent - Konrad, I noticed no one said they have loaded 5118 yet. I have it sitting in my drawer, waiting to see if it's OK. Hasn't ANYONE put it on? Dale Gindlesperger IT Manager/Special Projects Leader Fleetwood Folding Trailers, Inc. 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