Re: Are we not developers? -- RPG400-L

You nailed it... I could have for less than 40 hours of work made the site
look like what the other guys were offering and cost them millions of
dollars, years of work, and it's still not working. Why... programmers
don't have business programming experience like we do.

It was functional. Just not pretty (it was the 1990s!).. which is what
bosses that came from non IT backgrounds want. CSS, JS, etc were no
where NEAR what they are now as far as functionality.

We've failed because people think the language you use determines
it's facade... and maybe function.

Bradley V. Stone
www.bvstools.com
GreenTools for G Suite/Google Apps <https://www.bvstools.com/g4g.html>:
Easy to use interfaces for GMail, Google Drive, Calendar, Contacts and
Cloud Print! <\body> <\html>

On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 7:58 PM midrange <franz9000@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I'm sure Brad knows this - but there is no reason i-based web applications
couldn't be both "pretty" and "functional" - if given the opportunity.
What dooms a lot of AS400, Power I applications is the app not keeping up
with business needs until it's so late, then they buy the shiny new thing.
I've managed to keep one built in 2000, remade (pretty/functional in
2010), and then in 2019/20 changes to include phone/tablet and new CSS.
But often, not even given the opportunity to compete..
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: RPG400-L [mailto:rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Brad Stone
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 12:35 AM
To: RPG programming on IBM i <rpg400-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Are we not developers?

you got that pretty much right on the nose, Roger.

20 years ago I wrote a web application for a customer in the southern US.
It worked great, we fixed a bug now and then, even implemented credit card
payments.

2 years ago the powers at be think it needs to be redone. Why? Who
knows. Probably to make it "pretty".

Bring in a 3rd party to set it all up... millions of dollars later it
still doesn't work. Bring in another company and spend more millions...
eh.. nope.. Still not good. But mine does still work. Open up Quickbooks
and do a customer total. Not even 6 digits over 20 years. Not even close.

the difference...mine isn't "pretty". Ya, well back then CSS wasn't
great. spend your money on the new.... at least mine stuff works. it's
frustrating.

Bradley V. Stone
www.bvstools.com
Native IBM i e-Mail solutions for Microsoft Office 365, Gmail, or any
Cloud Provider!

On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 8:19 PM Roger Harman <roger.harman@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

I'll add a different take here... A developer has to understand the
environment in which they work.

The vast majority of IBM i developers have a MUCH better grasp of the
business than the developers likely represented on StackOverflow.
I've seen that over many years and see it constantly today.

Heck, I had a developer supporting Infinium payroll who took over as
Payroll Manager (for 4000 employees) for several months due to
illness/outages of the business people. You won't find that
capability in Javascript developers.

Roger Harman
COMMON Certified Application Developer – ILE RPG on IBM i on Power

-----Original Message-----
From: RPG400-L [mailto:rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Peter Dow
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 5:20 PM
To: rpg400-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Are we not developers?

Hi Vlad,

I have seen RPG on other platforms, but that was probably RPG II, and
probably not used for businesses.

However, the "IBM proprietary platform" runs more than just RPG. Most
modern languages I've heard of run on it.

There are still many programs written in RPG, COBOL, etc. on the IBM i
that are still running and probably will be for years. Part of the
attraction is the work management capabilities of the OS which I don't
see on other machines. And I've worked on a bunch of different
hardware besides IBM's -- Data General, NCR, Prime, MicroData, Univac,
as well as PCs running Windows and Linux.

But no matter, if you stick with what you're doing you will probably
be in our position one day. Progress!

--
*Peter Dow* /
Dow Software Services, Inc.
909 793-9050
petercdow@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:petercdow@xxxxxxxxx> pdow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:pdow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

/
On 5/29/2020 3:20 PM, Vlad Korge wrote:

I don't personally care about any sorts of ranks, listings etc. RPG
is indeed a programming language.
But its use is limited to one IBM proprietary platform which is
finding

its

way to a peaceful retirement now. Most of the developers are in

retirement

age and just don't want to accept the reality that their time as "IT
pioneers" has gone. I understand that it is hard. But it is true.
So,

don't

blame youngers for not wishing playing with grandpas toys.

Cheers,
Vlad.

-----Original Message-----
From: RPG400-L [mailto:rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf

Of Bob

Cagle
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 3:34 AM
To: RPG400-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Are we not developers?

I just read this summary of the 2020 Slack Overflow annual survey:

https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/stack-overflow-developer-survey-2020
-progr

amming-language-framework-salary-data/

There are no references to RPG or Cobol.

There are a couple of references to DB2: it ranked second to last in

least

used database. And if you look at the full survey, DB2 ranks #1 as
the

most

dreaded database.

I know we are a small community, but I'm surprised that neither RPG
nor Cobol were referenced at all. Could be that hardly any of us
hang out on Slack Overflow?

So does the rest of the world not consider us "real" developers
because

we

aren't using what they consider "real" languages?

I remember taking a class on C++ back in the mid-90s with a
co-worker of mine. The first day the instructor let us know that C++

was a "real"

language, and nothing like those "sissy" languages like Basic or
RPG. My co-worker immediately raised his hand and let him know that
we were both

RPG

programmers. The instructor told us that we would have a hard time
in

his

class then. We both passed with perfect scores; proved him wrong.

Just curious - anyone else ever experienced this type of bias?

Bob Cagle
IT Manager
Lynk

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