RE: interesting contradiction about needing H1B workers -- MIDRANGE-NONTECH

Michael,
You've left out a few important parts of the costs to others. If you
think about the costs to the overall community, the Federal Government
has lost tax base in lost wages. The local government loses money on 
property taxes that the unemployed, or lower wage employees can no
longer afford. If you are in a state that has an income tax, that
money is also reduced significantly. There is no money paid on
corporate taxes from the profits that the companies glean from the
"vapor" reduction in costs. With the tax break of last year, the 
profits on the increase in stock prices and profits is no longer
taxable. Many of the lower wage US employees end up in bankruptcy 
court, where millions are written off as bad debt. The "disposable"
income has become disposed. Lower wages means less tax revenue on 
sales taxes. For those using "On-shore" H-1B's, their governments 
apply to take those taxes back from our government, and our government
is required to give them back every penny any of the "temporary" workers
paid to our government, so any monies paid into the federal coffers are
gone.

Just as a side note, lower wages means less money for charitable
contributions.
Go ahead and ask TATA Consultancy or WiPro to sponsor your child's little
league team.
If they don't have a kid on the team, I doubt they are going to be printing
up 20 little league jerseys, and the "Fund-raiser" barbeque is strictly 
off limits. 
I do a lot of fundraising events for St Jude Children's hospital for cancer
research. Rather than say something nasty, I'll just leave it at that.

Free trade isn't free. Controlled fair trade is fair.

John Brandt
iStudio400.com

-----Original Message-----
From: michaelr_41@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:michaelr_41@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 10:04 AM
To: Non-Technical Discussion about the AS400 / iSeries
Subject: Re: interesting contradiction about needing H1B workers


Hi Rick -

Yes to all, but my current incarnation (last 8 years or so) is as an
independent. I understand the free-trade concept, though most trade is
*not* free. For instance, if a country provides a free college education
to their knowledge workers, and it costs others $30000-$80000(?) to
become trained, then a direct comparison cannot be made. The other
problem (as I see it) with outsourcing technology is that it stops junior
people from becoming trained. Most high level folks started out as low
level folks. If we send the low level (coding) jobs overseas, we won't
have high level people.

The 50 year old factory worker is just screwed. Business would rather
outsource their jobs to get an immediate benefit rather than invest in
the long term. People like that are being retrained in fast food. The
$20/hour job on which you can raise a faily is disappearing. It doesn't
directly affect me...but it will.

I'm lucky that I fill a niche that most IT folks don't. I know a lot of
different systems and can make them work together. That's a skill set
that can't be outsourced easily. I'm concerned about the lowering of
incomes in the US because I live here. I would rather not have the US
have the standard of living that's in place in India or China.

On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 10:39:19 -0500, rick.baird@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx said:
> 
> Michael,
> 
> when you say you've been a consultant most of your carreer, do you mean
> as
> an independent, a independent sub or employee of an oursourcing firm?
> There's a subtle distinction - I've been all three (as well as a custom
> software shop employee, which is a little different than an outsourcing
> body shop)
> 
> I've been SO on the fence over this whole h1b/offshore thing.  I have
> visceral feelings both ways.  I've always been a firm free-trader.  It's
> in
> my bones.  I've always felt that companys have every right to shop thier
> business around to whomever is going to give them the best value for
> thier
> dollar.  On the other hand, I see very disturbing trends that could very
> well kill my bottom line.  Not to mention the fact that it's a reversal
> of
> the promise made to all of the laid-off workers of the past several
> decades
> - 'retrain in computers!  it's the future!'   What do we tell them to do
> now that they're being priced out of thier jobs again?
> 
> I understand the distinctions you're trying to make.  And I agree, that
> if
> you want specific and highly developed skill sets, then you bring in
> consultants - but again, this is typically for short term projects.
> 
> I contend that a large portion of the consultants who currently fill the
> body shops here in the states are no better qualified than a lot of the
> in-house type folks (currently employed or not).  Amorphous goals are
> nice,
> but they don't directly effect profits and stock prices.
> 
> I guess the point I'm trying to make is that permenant contracting at the
> rates we in the US have been used to getting doesn't offer the value it
> once might have.
> 
> We do have to change.  We have to buckle down and expand our skill set,
> and
> we have to accept that we won't get to charge the rates we used to. 
> Unless
> the body shops lower thier margins, the consultants therein start going
> independent or in-house - and we all start delivering more value for our
> services - we're going to see a lot more offshoring.
> 
> And it'll be as much our fault as it is the 'greedy executives'.
> 
> Rick
> 
> -----original message--------
> Hi Rick -
> 
> I've pretty much always been a consultant in my career and have always
> billed more than the equivalent amount for an FTE P/A. Of course, a
> consultant should bring skills to the table that an FTE P/A wouldn't
> have. If the consultant has the same skill set as a P/A, then the
> employer should find an FTE. That's basic business stuff.
> 
> The outsourcing thing is a different animal I think, but I think it
> depends on perspective and the balance between tactical and strategic
> goals. If the tactical goal is getting code written at the lowest
> practical price, then outsourcing to India (or Eastern Europe or China or
> wherever) makes sense. If the strategic goal is more along the lines of
> local resource development, security, and more amorphous goals like that,
> then outsourcing is not the way to go.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
-- 
  
  michaelr_41@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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