RE: interesting contradiction about needing H1B workers -- MIDRANGE-NONTECH

Very good John...these additional costs to the country continue to mount
while stock values increase because of lower costs. We're building a
structure based on false assumptions...immediate benefit/long term harm
assumptions...and that structure will eventually collapse.

On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 11:09:51 -0600 , "John Brandt Sr."
<pgmr@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> said:
> Michael,
> You've left out a few important parts of the costs to others. If you
> think about the costs to the overall community, the Federal Government
> has lost tax base in lost wages. The local government loses money on 
> property taxes that the unemployed, or lower wage employees can no
> longer afford. If you are in a state that has an income tax, that
> money is also reduced significantly. There is no money paid on
> corporate taxes from the profits that the companies glean from the
> "vapor" reduction in costs. With the tax break of last year, the 
> profits on the increase in stock prices and profits is no longer
> taxable. Many of the lower wage US employees end up in bankruptcy 
> court, where millions are written off as bad debt. The "disposable"
> income has become disposed. Lower wages means less tax revenue on 
> sales taxes. For those using "On-shore" H-1B's, their governments 
> apply to take those taxes back from our government, and our government
> is required to give them back every penny any of the "temporary" workers
> paid to our government, so any monies paid into the federal coffers are
> gone.
> 
> Just as a side note, lower wages means less money for charitable
> contributions.
> Go ahead and ask TATA Consultancy or WiPro to sponsor your child's little
> league team.
> If they don't have a kid on the team, I doubt they are going to be
> printing
> up 20 little league jerseys, and the "Fund-raiser" barbeque is strictly 
> off limits. 
> I do a lot of fundraising events for St Jude Children's hospital for
> cancer
> research. Rather than say something nasty, I'll just leave it at that.
> 
> Free trade isn't free. Controlled fair trade is fair.
> 
> John Brandt
> iStudio400.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: michaelr_41@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:michaelr_41@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 10:04 AM
> To: Non-Technical Discussion about the AS400 / iSeries
> Subject: Re: interesting contradiction about needing H1B workers
> 
> 
> Hi Rick -
> 
> Yes to all, but my current incarnation (last 8 years or so) is as an
> independent. I understand the free-trade concept, though most trade is
> *not* free. For instance, if a country provides a free college education
> to their knowledge workers, and it costs others $30000-$80000(?) to
> become trained, then a direct comparison cannot be made. The other
> problem (as I see it) with outsourcing technology is that it stops junior
> people from becoming trained. Most high level folks started out as low
> level folks. If we send the low level (coding) jobs overseas, we won't
> have high level people.
> 
> The 50 year old factory worker is just screwed. Business would rather
> outsource their jobs to get an immediate benefit rather than invest in
> the long term. People like that are being retrained in fast food. The
> $20/hour job on which you can raise a faily is disappearing. It doesn't
> directly affect me...but it will.
> 
> I'm lucky that I fill a niche that most IT folks don't. I know a lot of
> different systems and can make them work together. That's a skill set
> that can't be outsourced easily. I'm concerned about the lowering of
> incomes in the US because I live here. I would rather not have the US
> have the standard of living that's in place in India or China.
> 
> On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 10:39:19 -0500, rick.baird@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx said:
> > 
> > Michael,
> > 
> > when you say you've been a consultant most of your carreer, do you mean
> > as
> > an independent, a independent sub or employee of an oursourcing firm?
> > There's a subtle distinction - I've been all three (as well as a custom
> > software shop employee, which is a little different than an outsourcing
> > body shop)
> > 
> > I've been SO on the fence over this whole h1b/offshore thing.  I have
> > visceral feelings both ways.  I've always been a firm free-trader.  It's
> > in
> > my bones.  I've always felt that companys have every right to shop thier
> > business around to whomever is going to give them the best value for
> > thier
> > dollar.  On the other hand, I see very disturbing trends that could very
> > well kill my bottom line.  Not to mention the fact that it's a reversal
> > of
> > the promise made to all of the laid-off workers of the past several
> > decades
> > - 'retrain in computers!  it's the future!'   What do we tell them to do
> > now that they're being priced out of thier jobs again?
> > 
> > I understand the distinctions you're trying to make.  And I agree, that
> > if
> > you want specific and highly developed skill sets, then you bring in
> > consultants - but again, this is typically for short term projects.
> > 
> > I contend that a large portion of the consultants who currently fill the
> > body shops here in the states are no better qualified than a lot of the
> > in-house type folks (currently employed or not).  Amorphous goals are
> > nice,
> > but they don't directly effect profits and stock prices.
> > 
> > I guess the point I'm trying to make is that permenant contracting at the
> > rates we in the US have been used to getting doesn't offer the value it
> > once might have.
> > 
> > We do have to change.  We have to buckle down and expand our skill set,
> > and
> > we have to accept that we won't get to charge the rates we used to. 
> > Unless
> > the body shops lower thier margins, the consultants therein start going
> > independent or in-house - and we all start delivering more value for our
> > services - we're going to see a lot more offshoring.
> > 
> > And it'll be as much our fault as it is the 'greedy executives'.
> > 
> > Rick
> > 
> > -----original message--------
> > Hi Rick -
> > 
> > I've pretty much always been a consultant in my career and have always
> > billed more than the equivalent amount for an FTE P/A. Of course, a
> > consultant should bring skills to the table that an FTE P/A wouldn't
> > have. If the consultant has the same skill set as a P/A, then the
> > employer should find an FTE. That's basic business stuff.
> > 
> > The outsourcing thing is a different animal I think, but I think it
> > depends on perspective and the balance between tactical and strategic
> > goals. If the tactical goal is getting code written at the lowest
> > practical price, then outsourcing to India (or Eastern Europe or China or
> > wherever) makes sense. If the strategic goal is more along the lines of
> > local resource development, security, and more amorphous goals like that,
> > then outsourcing is not the way to go.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
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> -- 
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