Re: Moving from Green screen app to GUI because of push back -- MIDRANGE-L

Yes, I understand this. I do have a question though: What about establishing a Skunkworks? Get permission for 3 or 4 programmers who work well together to allocate Fridays to Skunkwork work. Pick highly visible tasks that are used by the line staff and rework them to maximize the iSeries, and the available generic tools. Simple inquiry programs that work from mobile phones on up to huge kiosk displays. After the first three projects the pattern will be understood and the offerings will start making a change in the tide.

We already have the tools. What we don't have is the will.

On 12/13/2017 8:58 AM, Winchester Terry wrote:

FYI, your wrong with this statement with respect to our situation:

Just yesterday a comment on this list included "Retirement is just around
the corner." They hear "we're moving off the platform" and guess what!? That
should finish right about retirement. Perfect!

Here's the problem...there's a bunch of folks on this list who work in the
"consulting" world. That's great, I am happy for you and I'm sure you make
good money. But you should be careful about painting with such a wide brush.

Those of us who are "peons", working in larger multi-million dollar industries,
have no say whatsoever when C-level leadership changes and decisions are made
that dictate a different IT direction. At this point, you can toss out any
buzzword you wish as a reason for these changes...

In our case, there is no intermediate leadership that had the ability and
backing to "step up to the plate" and make a wild swing in support of staying
on this platform.

Anyone who doesn't understand this level of political structure in the
"big business" world...really needs to get out a little more often.
I hope some of you are able to help save the smaller companies...before
they reach this level of ignorance with regards to a strategic direction.

-----Original Message-----
From: MIDRANGE-L [mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DrFranken
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 9:26 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion; Nathan Andelin
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Moving from Green screen app to GUI because of push back

Nathan makes some great points here. Allow me to elaborate.

> 1. A legacy database (e.g. dates stored as 5-digit numeric; the > list goes on and on).

True. And yet how many of these came from S/34 or S/36 in the first place? In THAT conversion many databases were updated, I participated in many of these. AND when done correctly even way back in 1988 you now have externally described tables so making 5 into 7 or 9 is not even a challenge. People did it them.

> 2. An application architecture that was resistant to change.

Again often true. But resistant doesn't mean impossible. It means more challenging. It means thinking in ways the business demands, dare I say:
"Outside the box?"

> 3. An IT organization who failed to respond to new requirements > in a timely manner.

Shock and awe!! Frankly what did Nathan get wrong on this list? This one, but not the item, the sequence. THIS needs to be #1.

Just yesterday a comment on this list included "Retirement is just around the corner." They hear "we're moving off the platform" and guess what!? That should finish right about retirement. Perfect! And I think there are far too many reading this who feel that way. Sadly it means a lot of them ARE coasting. They've thrown in the towel knowing their fighter has a few more down card fights left but then it's done for them.

It is sad how often I have walked out of shops with effectively a broken heart. You can see when the staff has thrown that towel. They could have saved it had they provided a good response to new requirements. Instead they cheered when an app moved off i because 'my job is easier now!' They were happy to see Domino depart to O365, because 'email is a pain'. They loved that the new application had a GUI so they didn't have to break out of their subfile comfort zone! And then they were handed a bronzed power cord from their beloved "AS/400" and with it a pink piece of paper.

DON'T be that guy who gets a bronzed power cord.

- Larry "DrFranken" Bolhuis

www.Frankeni.com
www.iDevCloud.com - Personal Development IBM i timeshare service.
www.iInTheCloud.com - Commercial IBM i Cloud Hosting.

On 12/13/2017 7:56 AM, Nathan Andelin wrote:

Mark,

In fairness to Tim and other folks at IBM, it has been my experience
that when organizations migrate to Windows or Linux and Intel, it has
little to do with the fact that IBM hasn't provided a GUI, or bundled
it with the operating system. The real problem was that the
organization ran into constraints within (in order of priority):

1. A legacy database (e.g. dates stored as 5-digit numeric; the list
goes on and on).
2. An application architecture that was resistant to change.
3. An IT organization who failed to respond to new requirements in a
timely manner.

In regard to the IT people, the nail in the coffin that sealed their
fate was their proposal, or adoption of a screen scraper, and an
attempt to cover up the more relevant issues delineated above.

It had nothing to do with the cost of the screen scraper. It always
costs a lot more to migrate to Windows or Linux. In addition to the
migration cost, the ongoing operational costs are higher.

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 8:39 PM, mlazarus <mlazarus@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Tim,

I was discussing this subject recently with a very respected member
of this group. We were both confused how turning over a crucial, and
I do mean crucial to the longevity of the system, piece of creating a
modern UI is turned over to third party vendors instead of being
fully integrated and included in the OS.

Some vendors have done an admirable job creating a product, but
IMHO, it's ridiculous to have to pay a large bundle extra to get what
should be included and easily integrated into the system. It is also
more expensive to develop using (at least) some of these tools. My
estimate is at least 25% longer to develop and test.

I have three clients that are jumping ship to a PC based platform,
another that has already gone in that direction (they used to have
the largest AS/400 config in the US northeast (which included 14
AS/400's) and another is in the midst of moving part of their
operation to a PC based cloud system. I haven't heard of a new
member to the midrange fold in a long time. I would imagine that
they exist, but I think that 20+ years after the GUI became popular,
for IBM not to include this required functionality, plus the GUI
development tools as part of the base OS, is just plain foolish.

No offense to the tool vendors, but I believe that this
functionality is best integrated at a low level in the OS, not as a
generic API in order to get the best integration, debugging and performance.

-mark

On 12/12/2017 10:44 AM, Tim Rowe wrote:

Yes!! Moving from Green Screen to a Mobile or Web based interface is
being requested by many. Not just your either. In todays world
its really
becoming a necessity. That is one of the reasons that the IBM i
team has
been investing in Open Technologies that are being created to
interface
with our existing back end programs. Its why we have REST Api
engines that
are delivered with the operating system. To allow our IBM i
customer to
move in to this 'normal' world. Not only do we have many options that
allow you to do the work, we have a wealth of great ISVs that provide
tooling to help you make this transition in a fraction of the
time while
in many cases leaving your existing code virtually untouched.
If you are
interested in getting a view of some of these ISV, please send
me a note
and I can get you a list.

Or if you need more info on the options in the Open world for IBM i,
please let us know.
Tim

Tim Rowe, timmr@xxxxxxxxxx
Business Architect Application Development& Systems Management
for IBM i

IBM i Development Lab, Rochester, MN
(507) 253-6191 (Tie) 553-6191

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message: 2
date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 12:19:29 -0300
from: Raul Jager<raul@xxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: Moving from Green screen app to GUI because of
push back
from younger employees?

Go ahead with the change.? Go to web.

We began the change 20 years ago. Some user where against the new
interface, and we had to restrict the green screen, but when
we put it
back on, the users stayed with the web.

Once we learned to use the web, none of the programmers
wanted to do any
more green screen programs.? The web gives a lot of resources , and
frees from the limit in the size. You can replace one program
at a time,
and run "hybrid". Usually, by replacing just a few programs you will
take most of the work to the web.

We use CGIDEV2.? It replaces the "screen" with a "mask" in
html and the
RPG logic remains very similar.? (assuming you have small - one task
each - programs)
A good web designer can do the "presentation" without knowing
RPG, and
you can use it with minimal web knowledge.? Basic html is
simple, but
not spectacular. Even so, it is better than green screen.

On 12/12/2017 11:04 AM, Ken Meade wrote:
> I had a request to update our interface from a green screen
application to
> a 'more modern GUI' because of an inability to keep new employees
because
> of the look/feel of the green screen apps and the ability to more
easily
> train them if the look/feel was something they were more familiar
with.
>
>
>
> I'm just curious if others have run into this as a reason to
'modernize'
> their applications.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ken Meade
>
> Director of Information Technology | kmeade@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx |
> 603.444.3570 |
>
> 1309 Mt. Eustis Road, Littleton, NH 03561
>
> microsoft windows sharepoint services logo
>

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