RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we want tobe)

Do you reinvent the wheel or do you use one that someone else has made? 

All depends on ROI.  If it makes enough business sense then the tools should
be embraced.  The problem is that there is no way to know how much of an
effect introducing Java/EGL and WAS will have on your development team until
you go through it (or talk to somebody that has).  The other side is if they
(IBM) develop something native that has much less complexity and layers,
well, that is a much easier choice for an RPG shop to move forward with.
They don't have to look for ROI, because they are already reusing knowledge
accumulated over the past decade.

I would be the first to admit I don't keep up with all of the options and

issues within the development area but can't you use WAS express (or another
type of server), a sprinkling of Java (or another type of interface), and
incorporate it into your RPG language today? 

Who in the shop learns how to install WAS? Note it is not nearly as easy as
Apache.  Who maintains WAS (a lot going on in there)?  There is a lot of new
knowledge to obtain to support enterprise processes where WAS/Java is
introduced.  I have been successful in "sprinkling" Java throughout my RPG
apps.  For instance, I created RPG interfaces for Sun's JavaMail (named
RPGMail) and created RPG Chart Engine which interfaces with jfree.org's
chart engines (see http://mowyourlawn.com for these open source projects).
Those work great and are a sprinkling, but when you start to get to the
point of building an entire home grown app based on Java, that is where I
think RPG shops get themselves into trouble.  And that is where we SHOULD be
able to get native solutions to modernizing our applications.

HATS, Webfacing, Joe Pluta, Brad Stone, etc.  It seems to me that there are

good answers out there but as a community we can't agree on anything....

Joe has a really fast architecture that marries Java and RPG.  Really cool
framework that takes the best of both languages.  My dislike of that
approach is that you need two knowledge sets to debug one application - Java
AND RPG.  Office conversation: "Bill, our Java web based order entry is
crashing on screen 12, can you take a look at it?.... Sorry, Tom, I can't
look at it until Junior comes back from lunch because I don't know Java.  Oh
and when he comes back, I go to lunch and since Junior doesn't know RPG you
will have to wait until 1:30pm for us to debug it together."

Brad doesn't do Java anymore as far as I know.  He has worked with it, but I
think the taste of Java Kool-aid went sour in his mouth before mine (he was
my mentor at a previous employer).


In the end I guess what I am trying to be is a voice of the next generation
of programmers (I am 27yrs old);  that has gone the route of Java and all
the open source candy and found that it doesn't measure up to what
businesses want and need (talking iSeries specifically).  Don't get me
wrong, I still love playing around with Java and all the cool things it can
offer.  But when a company wants to write home grown applications on their
iSeries for their staff or customers, I don't think they should have to
learn a new language to do that.  Not when IBM has the minds to develop the
frameworks to do it completely from RPG all running natively on the iSeries.

Anyways, thanks for your comments.
Aaron Bartell
http://mowyourlawn.com



-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Crump, Mike
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 1:21 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we want
tobe)

Granted the incentive is something akin to a baseball bat to the back of the
head but these newer technologies are accepted technologies within the
industry.  Do you reinvent the wheel or do you use one that someone else has
made?  And the folks in Rochester can't sit there and not make a sizeable
investment or effort in the area of Java and WAS.  

I would be the first to admit I don't keep up with all of the options and
issues within the development area but can't you use WAS express (or another
type of server), a sprinkling of Java (or another type of interface), and
incorporate it into your RPG language today?  It can be viewed as a simple
stop gap but aren't there people out there doing quite well with them?
HATS, Webfacing, Joe Pluta, Brad Stone, etc.  It seems to me that there are
good answers out there but as a community we can't agree on anything.....

And in case you are wondering I am of the belief that you are an order of
magnitude more knowledgeable in this area than I am.  Perhaps the real meat
of this is that something needs to be done differently to assist existing
shops move somewhere forward....

And to Mark Allen's point about the threat to the system - there are answers
out there to modernize most systems.  I'm not advocating anyone of them but
I would believe that most shops can find an answer (not perhaps the one that
they are looking for) to transforming their application environment...


Michael Crump
 
Manager, Computing Services
Saint-Gobain Containers, Inc.
1509 S. Macedonia Ave.
Muncie, IN  47302
765.741.7696
765.741.7012 f 

If it's stupid but works, it isn't stupid.
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-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of albartell
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 12:24 PM
To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'
Subject: RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we want
tobe)

... but I have heard of way to many System i systems or applications

being
replaced because they are not modern/gui/whatever.  Given that, doesn't
something have to change?  And how should it be accomplished?

That is EXACTLY what I am talking about in my rant to George.  IBM is trying
to introduce us to COMPLETELY new languages (Java/EGL) and servers (WAS).
Changing to those vs. modifying RPG to meet the same need is where I think
they have gone wrong.  The change needs to happen to the RPG
language/platform and not through new introduction.  Sure they are making
consistent changes to RPG (small changes here and there), but they have
ignored the big elephant in the room of us needing RPG native ways to do web
programming and RPG native thick client interfaces.  

Thanks Mike,
Aaron Bartell


-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Crump, Mike
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 11:13 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we want
tobe)

Aaron,

I would definitely say that with any of the modern language environments
that the risk of 'performance' problems is much higher than it is with our
working languages.  "your mileage may vary"  "buyer beware" "it depends"
are
definite terms to be used when going down this road.

Don't forget that within the RPG world we have decades of experience and the
learning was typically done at a nice pace (read linear).  Today the people
using JAVA (even if they are knowledgeable) probably won't get to the same
level of comfort for quite a while.  And the expectations are that they pick
this up in a exponential fashion.

I know this goes to your point but the best JAVA programmers are the guys
who have been doing C or C++ programming for decades.  Same with .NET
weenies.  The complexity transition to any new technology is not to be
trivialized. The ripple effect is a nice way to put it.  Seems to be it some
where between a ripple and a rogue wave.  The administration of this is even
more complex.  And problem determination?  

Generally, I agree with most points but I'm not necessarily willing to damn
the new technologies.  There is a need and a fit out there.  Change for the
sake of change is never good but I have heard of way to many System i
systems or applications being replaced because they are not
modern/gui/whatever.  Given that, doesn't something have to change?  And how
should it be accomplished?

Michael Crump
 
Manager, Computing Services
Saint-Gobain Containers, Inc.
1509 S. Macedonia Ave.
Muncie, IN  47302
765.741.7696
765.741.7012 f 

Don't ever be the first, don't ever be the last and don't ever volunteer to
do anything.
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-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of albartell
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:56 AM
To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'
Subject: RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we want
tobe)

in essence implemented on a system that is already running a decent

workload, does not have enough memory, is utilizing an older processor, is
not written very well, etc.

Interestingly enough, these are all things that we "can get away with"
when
coding RPG.  Yes an RPG program can still kill a system, but I think that
happens much less often than in the Java environment.  I didn't put the word
"scholarly" in there simply because I was lacking word choice.  You have to
know A LOT about the ins and outs of Java components to 'get it right'
when
creating a large application with the potential for a lot of concurrent
users.  In RPG you are there much quicker.
 
Good to hear about your other failures to successes with Java. I don't hear
much of the successes believe it or not.  But like you commented in #1, a
lot of these things could/should simply be implemented in RPG as that is the
language most shops support.  Introducing a new language into the mix in any
shop has MANY ripple effects (think QA, Support, Training, Debugging, Split
knowledge on multiple platforms, etc)

Thanks for your comments Mike,
Aaron Bartell

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Crump, Mike
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:33 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we want
tobe)

Platform independence?  Not very.  We use JAVA more so to allow for using
the ubiquitous browser and for independence from MS.

Although, I would also have to respectfully disagree with some of Aaron's
points.  While I would not argue that plenty of people have horror stories
regarding native Java performance I think that you will find a lot of them
are of there own making - in essence implemented on a system that is already
running a decent workload, does not have enough memory, is utilizing an
older processor, is not written very well, etc.

1.)  We have a native JAVA program that processes our finite scheduling
system.  This is program that does a lot of IO and I argued up front that it
should have never been written in Java because it was a classic fit for RPG.
I lost but I will have to say that application runs blazingly fast and
processes many functions and millions of records.  I doubt that we would see
any improvement if it was converted to RPG.  In addition, by most testing it
is as fast as running it on an independent WINTEL platform.  I have compared
it run wise on our i5 to an IXS system (to eliminate remote database
issues)
and there is no comparison.  Right now, I am not in the position to test on
a faster Bladecenter type of unit but perhaps in the future.  The database
is remote to the native application as well.

2.)  We originally implemented WAS (v3) on a 720 years ago.  80% of the
application runs perfectly fine but certain components were a dog.
Processor was not being taxed, we were not short of memory, we just did not
have the processor crank and L2 cache that the application needed.
Shortly thereafter we upgraded to an 825 and 100% of the application ran
fine.  A classic example of implementing Java in a not so perfect platform.
I would argue that as we have climbed the server ladder 7xx, 8xx, 5xx the
potential for this problem has decreased.

3.)  We run WAS and WPS on our 570's and generally speaking these guys
perform very well.  Our major complaint on WPS comes from portlets that we
rely on our parent company for and their responsiveness is not very good.  

4.)  The native JVM can be a resource hog.  That is why the J9 was invented.
Certain machines and customers should not be running the native JVM.
They
do not have the horse for it.  Is it a problem with the native JVM?
Perhaps.  I would just argue that it is as much environmental as it is
platform.

I cannot argue with the complexity.  However, I think that this is not a
JAVA problem only.  Every existing 'modern' application is much more complex
than the traditional RPG model.  Whether it is Java, .NET, Domino, etc.
I
think that they are much more complicated either in architecture or in
resulting code length.

Michael Crump
 
Manager, Computing Services
Saint-Gobain Containers, Inc.
1509 S. Macedonia Ave.
Muncie, IN  47302
765.741.7696
765.741.7012 f 

Cluelessness
There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots. 
This email and its attachments may be confidential and are intended solely
for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions
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If
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must take no action based upon them, nor must you copy or show them to
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-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Michael Ryan
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:10 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we want to
be)

How important is platform independence to the community? It has little
importance to me. I believe RPG is the best language on iSeries, and I don't
need to write the same code to run on multiple platforms. I *do* write code
on multiple platforms (VB and C on Wintel), but I don't expect or want to
run the *same* code on other platforms.

On 3/28/07, albartell <albartell@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

While in that session I was very close to asking the group whether

they gave

a rip about platform independence.

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