RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we want tobe)

Aaron,

Makes a lot of sense.  I would argue that for a period of time the
System i (Ok ok...it was in the AS/400 or AS/400e days) that this
platform (OS/400 with RPG and PDM) was one of the best application
development platforms around.  In some ways IBM has walked away from
that.  And by sharing the stuff from all the other systems we may indeed
become only as good as they are.  Or if we are better it might be in a
fairly small manner.

Not to keep beating the dead horse but I do want to offer a thought.  I
would argue that for most customers installing WAS, updating WAS (group
PTF's), configuring WAS, and supporting WAS is not all that difficult.
I realize I complained earlier about certain complexities but I also
know that certain components are not very difficult - some of that is in
my world where we are using WAS ND, EJB's, and WPS Extend.  In some ways
these are not for the faint of heart. My comment assumes that a good
number of customers only need some of the basic functions.

So, for a lot of customers I don't see a lot of issues with installing
or updating WAS.  Pretty darn simple as far as I'm concerned.  I just
can't see it being considered more difficult.  Yes, for the typical
customer there are more steps but it can be a fairly trivial process.
        
In specific areas IBM has applied the ease of use/reduced complexity
model to WAS.  Using the HTTP Admin Wizard you can create/modify/delete
WAS instances to your hearts content.  Yes, it is extra work compared to
the RPG model but it has to fit into the category of easy to do.  And
with V5R4 at the certain PTF level you have a great way to do some very
slick ways of managing the performance aspects of WAS.  This is some
very slick XXXX.  I think Pat Fleming heads up that group in Rochester.

But, despite all of my "you are right, but what about" comments I would
say that the heart and soul of your points are on target.  There is a
balance in there between simplicity, cost of ownership, new technology,
existing customers, vendors, and new applications that is just not very
easy to hit.

And since you are a 27 year old developer it is refreshing to hear newer
is not always better....but I'm not mentioning my age......I need to
take off and figure out why my 570 to 570 HSL isn't working.

Great comments and thoughts!

Michael Crump
 
Manager, Computing Services
Saint-Gobain Containers, Inc.
1509 S. Macedonia Ave.
Muncie, IN  47302
765.741.7696
765.741.7012 f 

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-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of albartell
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 5:26 PM
To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'
Subject: RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we
want tobe)

Do you reinvent the wheel or do you use one that someone else has made?

All depends on ROI.  If it makes enough business sense then the tools
should
be embraced.  The problem is that there is no way to know how much of an
effect introducing Java/EGL and WAS will have on your development team
until
you go through it (or talk to somebody that has).  The other side is if
they
(IBM) develop something native that has much less complexity and layers,
well, that is a much easier choice for an RPG shop to move forward with.
They don't have to look for ROI, because they are already reusing
knowledge
accumulated over the past decade.

I would be the first to admit I don't keep up with all of the options

and
issues within the development area but can't you use WAS express (or
another
type of server), a sprinkling of Java (or another type of interface),
and
incorporate it into your RPG language today? 

Who in the shop learns how to install WAS? Note it is not nearly as easy
as
Apache.  Who maintains WAS (a lot going on in there)?  There is a lot of
new
knowledge to obtain to support enterprise processes where WAS/Java is
introduced.  I have been successful in "sprinkling" Java throughout my
RPG
apps.  For instance, I created RPG interfaces for Sun's JavaMail (named
RPGMail) and created RPG Chart Engine which interfaces with jfree.org's
chart engines (see http://mowyourlawn.com for these open source
projects).
Those work great and are a sprinkling, but when you start to get to the
point of building an entire home grown app based on Java, that is where
I
think RPG shops get themselves into trouble.  And that is where we
SHOULD be
able to get native solutions to modernizing our applications.

HATS, Webfacing, Joe Pluta, Brad Stone, etc.  It seems to me that there

are
good answers out there but as a community we can't agree on anything....

Joe has a really fast architecture that marries Java and RPG.  Really
cool
framework that takes the best of both languages.  My dislike of that
approach is that you need two knowledge sets to debug one application -
Java
AND RPG.  Office conversation: "Bill, our Java web based order entry is
crashing on screen 12, can you take a look at it?.... Sorry, Tom, I
can't
look at it until Junior comes back from lunch because I don't know Java.
Oh
and when he comes back, I go to lunch and since Junior doesn't know RPG
you
will have to wait until 1:30pm for us to debug it together."

Brad doesn't do Java anymore as far as I know.  He has worked with it,
but I
think the taste of Java Kool-aid went sour in his mouth before mine (he
was
my mentor at a previous employer).


In the end I guess what I am trying to be is a voice of the next
generation
of programmers (I am 27yrs old);  that has gone the route of Java and
all
the open source candy and found that it doesn't measure up to what
businesses want and need (talking iSeries specifically).  Don't get me
wrong, I still love playing around with Java and all the cool things it
can
offer.  But when a company wants to write home grown applications on
their
iSeries for their staff or customers, I don't think they should have to
learn a new language to do that.  Not when IBM has the minds to develop
the
frameworks to do it completely from RPG all running natively on the
iSeries.

Anyways, thanks for your comments.
Aaron Bartell
http://mowyourlawn.com



-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Crump, Mike
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 1:21 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we
want
tobe)

Granted the incentive is something akin to a baseball bat to the back of
the
head but these newer technologies are accepted technologies within the
industry.  Do you reinvent the wheel or do you use one that someone else
has
made?  And the folks in Rochester can't sit there and not make a
sizeable
investment or effort in the area of Java and WAS.  

I would be the first to admit I don't keep up with all of the options
and
issues within the development area but can't you use WAS express (or
another
type of server), a sprinkling of Java (or another type of interface),
and
incorporate it into your RPG language today?  It can be viewed as a
simple
stop gap but aren't there people out there doing quite well with them?
HATS, Webfacing, Joe Pluta, Brad Stone, etc.  It seems to me that there
are
good answers out there but as a community we can't agree on
anything.....

And in case you are wondering I am of the belief that you are an order
of
magnitude more knowledgeable in this area than I am.  Perhaps the real
meat
of this is that something needs to be done differently to assist
existing
shops move somewhere forward....

And to Mark Allen's point about the threat to the system - there are
answers
out there to modernize most systems.  I'm not advocating anyone of them
but
I would believe that most shops can find an answer (not perhaps the one
that
they are looking for) to transforming their application environment...


Michael Crump
 
Manager, Computing Services
Saint-Gobain Containers, Inc.
1509 S. Macedonia Ave.
Muncie, IN  47302
765.741.7696
765.741.7012 f 

If it's stupid but works, it isn't stupid.
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-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of albartell
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 12:24 PM
To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'
Subject: RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we
want
tobe)

... but I have heard of way to many System i systems or applications

being
replaced because they are not modern/gui/whatever.  Given that, doesn't
something have to change?  And how should it be accomplished?

That is EXACTLY what I am talking about in my rant to George.  IBM is
trying
to introduce us to COMPLETELY new languages (Java/EGL) and servers
(WAS).
Changing to those vs. modifying RPG to meet the same need is where I
think
they have gone wrong.  The change needs to happen to the RPG
language/platform and not through new introduction.  Sure they are
making
consistent changes to RPG (small changes here and there), but they have
ignored the big elephant in the room of us needing RPG native ways to do
web
programming and RPG native thick client interfaces.  

Thanks Mike,
Aaron Bartell


-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Crump, Mike
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 11:13 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we
want
tobe)

Aaron,

I would definitely say that with any of the modern language environments
that the risk of 'performance' problems is much higher than it is with
our
working languages.  "your mileage may vary"  "buyer beware" "it depends"
are
definite terms to be used when going down this road.

Don't forget that within the RPG world we have decades of experience and
the
learning was typically done at a nice pace (read linear).  Today the
people
using JAVA (even if they are knowledgeable) probably won't get to the
same
level of comfort for quite a while.  And the expectations are that they
pick
this up in a exponential fashion.

I know this goes to your point but the best JAVA programmers are the
guys
who have been doing C or C++ programming for decades.  Same with .NET
weenies.  The complexity transition to any new technology is not to be
trivialized. The ripple effect is a nice way to put it.  Seems to be it
some
where between a ripple and a rogue wave.  The administration of this is
even
more complex.  And problem determination?  

Generally, I agree with most points but I'm not necessarily willing to
damn
the new technologies.  There is a need and a fit out there.  Change for
the
sake of change is never good but I have heard of way to many System i
systems or applications being replaced because they are not
modern/gui/whatever.  Given that, doesn't something have to change?  And
how
should it be accomplished?

Michael Crump
 
Manager, Computing Services
Saint-Gobain Containers, Inc.
1509 S. Macedonia Ave.
Muncie, IN  47302
765.741.7696
765.741.7012 f 

Don't ever be the first, don't ever be the last and don't ever volunteer
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This email and its attachments may be confidential and are intended
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-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of albartell
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:56 AM
To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'
Subject: RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we
want
tobe)

in essence implemented on a system that is already running a decent

workload, does not have enough memory, is utilizing an older processor,
is
not written very well, etc.

Interestingly enough, these are all things that we "can get away with"
when
coding RPG.  Yes an RPG program can still kill a system, but I think
that
happens much less often than in the Java environment.  I didn't put the
word
"scholarly" in there simply because I was lacking word choice.  You have
to
know A LOT about the ins and outs of Java components to 'get it right'
when
creating a large application with the potential for a lot of concurrent
users.  In RPG you are there much quicker.
 
Good to hear about your other failures to successes with Java. I don't
hear
much of the successes believe it or not.  But like you commented in #1,
a
lot of these things could/should simply be implemented in RPG as that is
the
language most shops support.  Introducing a new language into the mix in
any
shop has MANY ripple effects (think QA, Support, Training, Debugging,
Split
knowledge on multiple platforms, etc)

Thanks for your comments Mike,
Aaron Bartell

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Crump, Mike
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:33 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we
want
tobe)

Platform independence?  Not very.  We use JAVA more so to allow for
using
the ubiquitous browser and for independence from MS.

Although, I would also have to respectfully disagree with some of
Aaron's
points.  While I would not argue that plenty of people have horror
stories
regarding native Java performance I think that you will find a lot of
them
are of there own making - in essence implemented on a system that is
already
running a decent workload, does not have enough memory, is utilizing an
older processor, is not written very well, etc.

1.)  We have a native JAVA program that processes our finite scheduling
system.  This is program that does a lot of IO and I argued up front
that it
should have never been written in Java because it was a classic fit for
RPG.
I lost but I will have to say that application runs blazingly fast and
processes many functions and millions of records.  I doubt that we would
see
any improvement if it was converted to RPG.  In addition, by most
testing it
is as fast as running it on an independent WINTEL platform.  I have
compared
it run wise on our i5 to an IXS system (to eliminate remote database
issues)
and there is no comparison.  Right now, I am not in the position to test
on
a faster Bladecenter type of unit but perhaps in the future.  The
database
is remote to the native application as well.

2.)  We originally implemented WAS (v3) on a 720 years ago.  80% of the
application runs perfectly fine but certain components were a dog.
Processor was not being taxed, we were not short of memory, we just did
not
have the processor crank and L2 cache that the application needed.
Shortly thereafter we upgraded to an 825 and 100% of the application ran
fine.  A classic example of implementing Java in a not so perfect
platform.
I would argue that as we have climbed the server ladder 7xx, 8xx, 5xx
the
potential for this problem has decreased.

3.)  We run WAS and WPS on our 570's and generally speaking these guys
perform very well.  Our major complaint on WPS comes from portlets that
we
rely on our parent company for and their responsiveness is not very
good.  

4.)  The native JVM can be a resource hog.  That is why the J9 was
invented.
Certain machines and customers should not be running the native JVM.
They
do not have the horse for it.  Is it a problem with the native JVM?
Perhaps.  I would just argue that it is as much environmental as it is
platform.

I cannot argue with the complexity.  However, I think that this is not a
JAVA problem only.  Every existing 'modern' application is much more
complex
than the traditional RPG model.  Whether it is Java, .NET, Domino, etc.
I
think that they are much more complicated either in architecture or in
resulting code length.

Michael Crump
 
Manager, Computing Services
Saint-Gobain Containers, Inc.
1509 S. Macedonia Ave.
Muncie, IN  47302
765.741.7696
765.741.7012 f 

Cluelessness
There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive
idiots. 
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solely
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expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
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down, politically corrected, and would show up a week later if at all.
If
you are not the intended recipient of this email and its attachments,
you
must take no action based upon them, nor must you copy or show them to
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Please contact the sender if you believe you have received this email in
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-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Michael Ryan
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:10 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: Platform Independence (was George is Farr from where we want to
be)

How important is platform independence to the community? It has little
importance to me. I believe RPG is the best language on iSeries, and I
don't
need to write the same code to run on multiple platforms. I *do* write
code
on multiple platforms (VB and C on Wintel), but I don't expect or want
to
run the *same* code on other platforms.

On 3/28/07, albartell <albartell@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

While in that session I was very close to asking the group whether

they gave

a rip about platform independence.

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