RE: Green screen to GUI -- MIDRANGE-L

I agree as well.

I've spent the past four years writing java to interact with our backend RPG
and DB2 database. We started with plain model II JSP & Servlets, moved to
Struts, and are currently using the Spring Framework with IBATIS DAOs.

At the beginning of the year we will merge with our world wide headquarters.
That means we will be standardizing on one development model: .NET.  The
iSeries won't go away immediately, but it appears to be on its way out.

I knew this was coming so I've been evaluating .NET for the past three
months, and it seems like a more productive development model. 

Tony


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Today's Topics:

   1. RE: Green screen to GUI (Shannon O'Donnell)
   2. RE: Green screen to GUI (Booth Martin)
   3. RE: COMMON Update (Don)
   4. RE: COMMON Update (Jon Paris)
   5. Re: COMMON Update (Don)
   6. COMMON Update... (Don)
   7. RE: Green screen to GUI (Joe Pluta)
   8. RE: COMMON Update - misc - Database - Oracle (rob@xxxxxxxxx)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

message: 1
date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:57:27 -0500
from: "Shannon O'Donnell" <sodonnell@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: RE: Green screen to GUI

Amen brother.  

Personally, (and this is going to get me booed on this list...) I would love
to see a port of MS Visual Basic to the iSeries.

-----Original Message-----
    From: "Rick DuVall"<R_C_DuVall@xxxxxxxxxx>
    Sent: 9/21/05 10:38:08 AM
    To: "Midrange Systems Technical Discussion"<midrange-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
    Subject: RE: Green screen to GUI
    
    Hi Jeff,
    
        I have felt the same for a long time.  It is
    annoying/embarrassing/exasperating to be talking to someone outside the
    company about a project,  explaining that we are running on the
    As/400-iSeries-i5, only to be met with the 'Oh, that's one of those old
    legacy machines isn't it?' or something similar.  There is nothing I can
    say.  I've tried all the possibilities - 'Dear, the AS/400 was a 64 bit
    powerhouse while Windows was only...' and so forth.  Anything I say has
no
    effect - for the most part - they don't have the knowledge or experience
to
    comprehend.  The only thing that would make a dent in their smug
dismissal
    would be a true graphical interface and the tools to make easy use of
it.
    
        We had better admit it - we live in a graphical world.  All the
    integration/stability/security in the world will not win over the
    uneducated/inexperienced, but one simple graphical interface can start
the
    process. (a picture is worth more than a thousand words)
    
        I have been an c/rpg programmer since 1988 - mostly rpg.  I use
    subprocedures and ILE and make use of the various API's available when
    needed.  I have taken classes and read about java - we even use it
    extensively in xml processing.  But I have just spent the previous week
or
    so blundering through trying to get a web service to run on WAS Express
5.0.
    I finally succeeded,  but my point is the Microsoft guys I have worked
with
    would jeeringly state - 'I could have had that done in two hours on a
    microsoft platform with microsoft tools.'  AND THEY ARE RIGHT!  I've
seen
    it. DAMMIT!
    
        I don't know what the answer is - I was interviewing a guy the other
day -
    bright guy - late 20's with a masters degree in cs - a real hot dog.  He
    asked what kind of server we ran and I replied with the 'IBM iSeries'
    string.  He replied yeah, but what does it run, Windows 2003 server?  He
had
    no idea what I was talking about.
    
        I don't know where I am going with this - I guess I'm just blowing
off
    steam.  But I am getting tired of everybody else (non-iSeries) blowing
    through projects that I have to sweat blood to perform.  I need some
tools
    that are on a par with Micro$oft's.  I need wizards that ACTUALLY WORK!
    Everything has to be ARCANE!  Even the simplest things have some little
part
    of it obfuscated in the manuals that make it a major effort to
implement.
    
        Oh well, like Jeff said - Back to work...
    
    Regards and apologies for ranting
    
    Rick DuVall
    Systems Manager
    Dealer's Auto Auction of Okc
    405 947-2886 Ext:143
    rick@xxxxxxxxxx
    
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
    [mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Jeff Crosby
    Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:19 AM
    To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'
    Subject: Green screen to GUI
    
    
    There's an interesting discussion on iSeries Network about the
perception of
    the AS400/iSeries/i5.  In the area of green screen vs GUI, a poster
makes
    the following observation (pay particular attention to the second
    paragraph):
    
    <thepost>
    
    IBM's Developer's Road Map is IBM's way of recusing itself from dealing
with
    the reality of the green-screen dilemma. Even if you accept the
WebSphere
    value proposition, there's a chasm between the green-screen environment
and
    the full-tilt Java/RPG/WebSphere environment IBM wants for its
customers.
    IBM proposes HATS and WebFacing: HATS is limited use; WebFacing is not
much
    different than being invited to tie the noose at your own hanging.
CGIDEV
    won't die, in spite of IBM's bumbling efforts to treat it like an old
Eskimo
    (push it out on an ice floe and let it die).
    
    Since the early 70's, IBM has, generally speaking, provided an
integrated
    solution for midrange customers. Consider IBM's investment in the
    S/36-to-AS/400 conversion and the AS/400 S/36 environment, and you have
to
    wonder how IBM could miss the strategic importance of having a Blue
Roadmap
    for the moving to browser-based applications instead of throwing the
    responsibility out to 3rd parties. I believe moving off green-screen
    applications is the most signficant change the iSeries community has
ever
    faced, and IBM's response has been to stand on the other side of the
river,
    waving, and saying the water's not too cold.
    
    </thepost>
    
    Until I read the above, I (in the words of the caller to Mr Obvious on
Bob &
    Tom) had "never made the connection".  It suddenly dawned on me how well
IBM
    handled things for us S/36 customers going to an AS/400.  It was a
complete
    solution, end-to-end, at your company's pace, one step at a time,
everything
    covered to the nth degree.  That's what IBM did, "provide a complete
    integrated solution for midrange customers" which is how IBM cultivated
such
    loyalty, while at the same time, we, as customers, could concentrate on
    business solutions.
    
    Contrast that with burger flipping ads.  IBM completely missed what was
    needed when it came to green screen to GUI.
    
    Oh well.  Back to work.
    
    --
    Jeff Crosby
    Dilgard Frozen Foods, Inc.
    P.O. Box 13369
    Ft. Wayne, IN 46868-3369
    260-422-7531
    
    
    -- 
    This is the Midrange Systems Technical Discussion (MIDRANGE-L) mailing
list
    To post a message email: MIDRANGE-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx
    To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
    visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-l
    or email: MIDRANGE-L-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
    Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
    at http://archive.midrange.com/midrange-l.
    
    
    



------------------------------

message: 2
date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:57:49 -0500 (Central Standard Time)
from: "Booth Martin" <booth@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: RE: Green screen to GUI

The argument reminds me of VHS vs, Beta Max.  Of course the lesson there is
that both are now dead.  

The follow on question becomes "OK, what follows GUI?" 
 
---------------------------------
Booth Martin
http://www.martinvt.com
---------------------------------
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Date: 09/21/05 09:45:48
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Green screen to GUI
 
Hi Jeff,
 
  I have felt the same for a long time.  It is
annoying/embarrassing/exasperating to be talking to someone outside the
company about a project,  explaining that we are running on the
As/400-iSeries-i5, only to be met with the 'Oh, that's one of those old
legacy machines isn't it?' or something similar.  There is nothing I can
say.  I've tried all the possibilities - 'Dear, the AS/400 was a 64 bit
powerhouse while Windows was only...' and so forth.  Anything I say has no
effect - for the most part - they don't have the knowledge or experience to
comprehend.  The only thing that would make a dent in their smug dismissal
would be a true graphical interface and the tools to make easy use of it.
 
  We had better admit it - we live in a graphical world.  All the
integration/stability/security in the world will not win over the
uneducated/inexperienced, but one simple graphical interface can start the
process. (a picture is worth more than a thousand words)
 
  I have been an c/rpg programmer since 1988 - mostly rpg.  I use
subprocedures and ILE and make use of the various API's available when
needed.  I have taken classes and read about java - we even use it
extensively in xml processing.  But I have just spent the previous week or
so blundering through trying to get a web service to run on WAS Express 5.0.
I finally succeeded,  but my point is the Microsoft guys I have worked with
would jeeringly state - 'I could have had that done in two hours on a
microsoft platform with microsoft tools.'  AND THEY ARE RIGHT!  I've seen
it. DAMMIT!
 
  I don't know what the answer is - I was interviewing a guy the other day -
bright guy - late 20's with a masters degree in cs - a real hot dog.  He
asked what kind of server we ran and I replied with the 'IBM iSeries'
string.  He replied yeah, but what does it run, Windows 2003 server?  He had
no idea what I was talking about.
 
  I don't know where I am going with this - I guess I'm just blowing off
steam.  But I am getting tired of everybody else (non-iSeries) blowing
through projects that I have to sweat blood to perform.  I need some tools
that are on a par with Micro$oft's.  I need wizards that ACTUALLY WORK!
Everything has to be ARCANE!  Even the simplest things have some little part
of it obfuscated in the manuals that make it a major effort to implement.
 
  Oh well, like Jeff said - Back to work...
 
Regards and apologies for ranting
 
Rick DuVall
Systems Manager
Dealer's Auto Auction of Okc
405 947-2886 Ext:143
rick@xxxxxxxxxx
 

------------------------------

message: 3
date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:03:13 -0400 (EDT)
from: Don <dr2@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: RE: COMMON Update



well, we were wondering why there was so much beer left over at CUDs..:)

Don in DC

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Jon Paris wrote:

> Pete,
>
> >> Wait a minute...I'm signed up for Blending Java with RPG with you
> presenting at 11:00am tomorrow.... Or, not?
>
> Susan will be presenting the session.  I'm saddened that it has taken you
> this long to realize that I'm not there! <grin>
>
> Jon Paris
> Partner400
>
> www.Partner400.com
> www.RPGWorld.com
>
>
> -- 
> This is the Midrange Systems Technical Discussion (MIDRANGE-L) mailing
list
> To post a message email: MIDRANGE-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
> visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-l
> or email: MIDRANGE-L-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
> at http://archive.midrange.com/midrange-l.
>


------------------------------

message: 4
date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:05:57 -0400
from: "Jon Paris" <Jon.Paris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: RE: COMMON Update

 >> Susan is good and maybe even better then Jon and she certainly is better
looking. :)

Hey - resemble that remark!

I also have to agree.

Jon Paris
Partner400

www.Partner400.com
www.RPGWorld.com



------------------------------

message: 5
date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:06:20 -0400 (EDT)
from: Don <dr2@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: COMMON Update



you should have come to the Sunday night CUDS...Midrange-L had a full 
table...

Don in DC

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Pete Helgren wrote:

> Hey...not to worry!  I sat at the CUDS last night for an hour and saw no
one 
> with a name I recognized from midrange.com (just shows you how
"personable" I 
> am...)  I am going to put my midrange.com baseball cap this afternoon and
see 
> if that generates some "connections".
>
> Interestingly though, there was no announcement of your absence (that I
was 
> aware of).  Common's site still lists you so I guess they will send the
"big 
> check" for the presentation.
>
> I appreciated your presentation in Chicago and looked forward to seeing
more 
> here in Orlando.  But, I haven't been to one of Susan's presentations yet
so 
> I have something else to look forward to.
>
> Pete
>
>
> Jon Paris wrote:
>
>> Pete,
>> 
>> >> Wait a minute...I'm signed up for Blending Java with RPG with you
>> presenting at 11:00am tomorrow.... Or, not?
>> 
>> Susan will be presenting the session.  I'm saddened that it has taken you
>> this long to realize that I'm not there! <grin>
>> 
>> Jon Paris
>> Partner400
>> 
>> www.Partner400.com
>> www.RPGWorld.com
>> 
>>
>> 
> -- 
> This is the Midrange Systems Technical Discussion (MIDRANGE-L) mailing
list
> To post a message email: MIDRANGE-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
> visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-l
> or email: MIDRANGE-L-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
> at http://archive.midrange.com/midrange-l.
>


------------------------------

message: 6
date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:09:04 -0400 (EDT)
from: Don <dr2@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: COMMON Update...


SO, did any of you folks win the Quadrant "drawing" last night?




------------------------------

message: 7
date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:15:38 -0500
from: "Joe Pluta" <joepluta@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: RE: Green screen to GUI

I simply don't agree with this sentiment.  As far as I can tell, IBM has
done EXACTLY the same thing for the GUI environment as they did for the
S/36.

1. They created an environment where your old programs would run.  S36EE
for the S/36 folks, and WebFacing or HATS for the 5250 world.

2. They created a completely different programming paradigm for new
development.  This is RPG/ILE for the S/36 folks, and WebSphere for the
green screen folks.

The only "pure" conversion was to S36EE.  You cannot run S/36 source
code natively on the iSeries.  There's no conversion tool to take
existing S/36 code and seamlessly turn it into service programs.  Heck,
it's hard to turn RPG II code into RPG III; I know, I converted an
entire financial package once.  Just converting internally described
files to externally described files was a major endeavor.

So, IBM let you run in S/36 mode, and that was good enough for many
people (there are still shops out there on S36EE).  However, the vast
majority of shops eventually converted up to RPG III, and some have even
made the transition to RPG IV and ILE.  Some, but by no means all,
because it requires an investment of time and money.  But S36 developers
paid that cost.  When did they learn PLISTs?  Or subfiles?  Or DDS?
They didn't have any of this on the S/36, yet they learned it all.  IBM
didn't learn it for them.

The move from green to GUI is even more traumatic.  While RPG II to RPG
III+ was primarily syntactic, the change from green to GUI is much more
like the change from RPG III to service programs and ILE; it requires a
complete change of mindset.  There is no magic conversion tool that will
allow you to do it.

But you CAN do it.  It's not really that difficult, just challenging.
But you have to be willing to spend the time and money to do it.  I can
teach you how to create robust client/server applications using JSP and
a very thin layer of Java, with all the back-end processing in RPG, in a
week.  But then you still have to be ready to write your RPG code as
servers, and be ready to start thinking in terms of HTML and CSS rather
than 5250 display attributes.

And if you aren't willing to make that investment, then IBM has once
again provided you a legacy environment with HATS and WebFacing.  Or you
can spend a littler more and get an advanced tool like PSC/400.  In
either case, you don't have to upgrade your skill set any more than you
did with the S36EE environment.

Joe


> From: Jeff Crosby
> 
> Until I read the above, I (in the words of the caller to Mr Obvious on
Bob
> &
> Tom) had "never made the connection".  It suddenly dawned on me how
well
> IBM
> handled things for us S/36 customers going to an AS/400.  It was a
> complete
> solution, end-to-end, at your company's pace, one step at a time,
> everything
> covered to the nth degree.  That's what IBM did, "provide a complete
> integrated solution for midrange customers" which is how IBM
cultivated
> such
> loyalty, while at the same time, we, as customers, could concentrate
on
> business solutions.



------------------------------

message: 8
date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:11:30 -0500
from: rob@xxxxxxxxx
subject: RE: COMMON Update - misc - Database - Oracle

http://www-03.ibm.com/servers/eserver/iseries/education/scholars/emea/busine
sscomm.html

Rob Berendt