From: albartell

I don't think your argument that PHP isn't an OO language is a good one.
agree that it isn't a purist OO language, but I actually enjoy the middle
ground of OO it found and actually wish RPG could find similar middle
ground. You don't need OO to develop business apps, you just need a
language. On the flipside, OO is great for low level framework building
and what not.

I only say that PHP isn't OO simply because some people tout PHP5 as OO.
IMO it's not a good OO implementation, for some of the reasons I've
mentioned, namespace being the biggest one.

I do agree that a good modular procedural language is best for business
logic and OO for frameworks, but I've been saying that for years, which is
why I recommend JSP Model 2 with a very thin Java layer over RPG business
logic. The amount of Java you need depends on what you're trying to do.

IMO a bigger issue would be strong typing for variables. That has bitten
in the butt a number of times and I would have to believe it would be hard
to catch errors at development time in PHP as good as Java can catch them
in the IDE.

Ugh, Aaron, be careful. The folks who like scripting languages are in love
with loose typing. PHP, Python, all the loosely typed languages are
heralded because of their very looseness. Loose typing allows you to code
without actually designing up front.

Yes, it's a learning curve. But if you learned subfiles you can learn

I haven't done subfiles for awhile, but I would consider the above
statement grossly inaccurate.

And I wouldn't. I've met a LOT of people who weren't taught Java correctly,
and that's sad. But I do my JSP Model 2 for RPG programmers seminar around
the country and everybody gets it.

Remember we are talking about building applications
that have many different configuration files and many different jars,

What are you talking about? I don't use ANY configuration files for my
stuff, Aaron. And using JAR files is no different than using DLLs or
included PHP files or anything else. And anyway I only use one JAR file:
the Java toolbox.

many different layers that all need to work together - no just the Java
language and syntax. Like others have said before, it is easy for you Joe
because you have lived in the space for so long.

It's easy for me because I'm a programmer. In my thirty years in this
business, I have found that a good programmer - one who understands how a
computer works - can switch between languages easily. I'm sorry, but I
consider the dumbing down of programming is a bad trend, and anybody who
says Java is too hard is part of that trend. IMHO.


In contrast, PHP is easier
than doing RPG CGI in some cases. Both of those statements are leading me
up to ask you if you've tried's framework for Java.

Heeee! Grails is a framework built upon an extension on top of Java. If
you need something to do that much work for you, great, but if you're going
to turn that much programming over to someone else, then you had better
trust them implicitly.

On one hand, though, I kinda like the Groovy extensions to the language. It
does make some things easier. On the other hand, a good IDE can help you
with most of the things that Groovy will do, and I don't have to deal with
this crap:

(0..10).each {
println "Line $it"

This is better than Java? Why? Magic variables like $it make my skin
cringe (not to mention the fact that I've worked hard the latter half of my
career to STOP using the dollar sign in my programs <grin>).

I think the
Java community/creators are finally realizing that the language, to gain
broad acceptance, needs less of a scholarly approach and more of a get'er
done approach - which I believe is attempting to do.

No, grails is like any of the other frameworks: it removes grunt work for
simple stuff. Great. It still doesn't do a damned thing for you when you
want to do something outside the grails box.

Hey, if you want something to do the work for you, it's already there. It's
EGL. EGL is faster and easier than any of the things you're playing with,
AND it has a built-in WYSIWYG editor, AND it's supported by IBM, AND it's
integrated with WDSC. And you only have to learn EGL, which is an even
easier language than Groovy.

PHP came from humble beginnings and is _still_ learning about enterprise,
and that makes it a risky venture. I would say one takes the same risk
with Microsoft/IIS/ASP.NET, but that's a battle for another day.

It's no battle. In fact it's a similar decision. It's a business decision.

The decision to use a non-standard scripting language over a full-fledged
application development platform is similar to whether to use Windows over
i5/OS. Some will use Windows. Some will use PHP. I'll bet that in most
cases they will get similar results.

Anyway, you want to continue the discussion about web application
frameworks, go ahead. I think that discussion is perhaps better suited for
WEB400, since, like PHP, GRAILS is a web-based application framework. The
original poster was asking about web applications, so the discussion is on
topic, but remember, this is the Java400 mailing list <grin>.


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