But forgive me, but aren't you asking people to use third party frameworks
that may not even work with some database implementations? As far as I
know, GRAILS is pretty much synced up with Spring and Hibernate; what if you
don't use those?

That's my point exactly! There is complexity in choosing frameworks because
you can't simply pick-n-pack without doing thorough testing, and there in
lies some of Java's complexity.

Basically, I teach you enough Java so that you don't need to rely on other
people's code. That's a good thing, Aaron.

I agree that this is a good thing as long as you don't try to re-invent the
wheel in all cases. In your case reinventing the wheel has great benefits
because the wheel is fairly straight forward, and like you said, you own the
code. What if there were cases where it didn't make sense to go through RPG
to get to the database because it was more of a reporting section of the
software? Would you consider an ORM solution like Hibernate in that case?
Note that I am well aware of Hibernates short comings, and that is where it
helps to have some experience with these "off the shelf" code sets.

No, you were complaining about Java, as usual. Your opinion is that Java
is too hard to learn, and the fact is that I've created a development
environment in which it is not. If you stepped back and considered my
development approach a framework - if it were a shiny new Open Source
project that wasn't written by Joe Pluta - you would probably embrace it.

Do you have an example implementation of your framework on the web somewhere
that we can review it?

Aaron Bartell
http://mowyourlawn.com

-----Original Message-----
From: java400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:java400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Joe Pluta
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:17 AM
To: 'Java Programming on and around the iSeries / AS400'
Subject: RE: A Dialogue

From: albartell

But I do my JSP Model 2 for RPG programmers seminar around the
country
and
everybody gets it.

Your JSP Model 2 is a lot different than learning the entire
complexity of Java and popular frameworks. You have done a good job
of narrowing it down to a set of specific class types and necessary
jar files (if any). That approach isn't prevalent in the Java space,
instead everyone is left to their own demise of hoping their servlet
implementation doesn't conflict with their ORM solution, etc, etc.

But forgive me, but aren't you asking people to use third party frameworks
that may not even work with some database implementations? As far as I
know, GRAILS is pretty much synced up with Spring and Hibernate; what if you
don't use those?


What are you talking about? I don't use ANY configuration files for
my
stuff, Aaron. And using JAR files is no different than using DLLs or
included PHP files or anything else. And anyway I only use one JAR file:
the Java toolbox.

Why don't you broaden your scope outside of what YOU do and think of
what OTHERs are using Java for?

Why should I? You keep espousing frameworks, which are task-specific pieces
of code designed to make programming easier. My architecture, which doesn't
require ANY third party code, does the same thing: it makes development
easier.

So why is my approach, in which you learn enough Java to own ALL of the code
in your system, worse than your approach, in which you rely on the largesse
of the Open Source community and hope they fix the bugs you need fixed?

Basically, I teach you enough Java so that you don't need to rely on other
people's code. That's a good thing, Aaron.


I wasn't addressing your approach directly.

No, you were complaining about Java, as usual. Your opinion is that Java is
too hard to learn, and the fact is that I've created a development
environment in which it is not. If you stepped back and considered my
development approach a framework - if it were a shiny new Open Source
project that wasn't written by Joe Pluta - you would probably embrace it.

And the beauty of my framework is that it's built on native Java code and
once you learn it, you're not beholden to ANY third party code. No new
language, no frameworks, no jars except what you've written (and the Java
toolbox from IBM).



You
know what I am talking about and you know that using your approach is
incredibly minority compared to what others are doing.

Actually, it's not. EGL does exactly this: it provides a thin presentation
layer and uses Java as a connector to back end business logic (and it also
gives you the ability to write your business logic in EGL). EGL just
generates the Java for you, whereas in my technique you have to write the
connecting plumbing.


I haven't used groovy or grails yet, so thanks for your insight.

"I think the Java community/creators are finally realizing that the
language, to gain broad acceptance, needs less of a scholarly approach and
more of a get'er done approach - which I believe grails.org is attempting to
do."

You haven't used Groovy or GRAILS, but you're using it as a sign that the
Java community is somehow planning to dumb down the programming paradigm.

Interesting read on that, not sure I follow it.


Joe


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