Re: Switching to RDI from SEU -- WDSCI-L

>Us open source folks chafe a bit at those numbers......

[Aaron goes to get his son's "Butt Paste" to ease the chafe that is now spreading on his RPG typing fingers]

Oh mama. That is quite the crazy pricing! I would guess most wouldn't need the OPM compilers, but then again I have very little exposure to those types of customers these days so maybe it is more prominent than I know.

If I am reading this correctly there also wasn't the charge for "internet users" (i.e. users that come in through the browser) which I believe is another $4k addition last I heard and is also the direction many are going with their apps.

Now, I am not one to say that you shouldn't have to pay for excellent software (i.e. DB2, OS400, RPG, CL, etc) because I would rather buy time than try to integrate disparate software, but where I have issue is that even with this monstrous pricing they aren't even doing their main focus on the technologies that will further the hardware+OS combination (IBM i specifically) you are purchasing and instead are putting the lion's share of development into EGL (which will only encourage people to run it on their Intel Linux/Windows servers in the coming 10 years IMO).

The only good thing out of all this is that if you are an IBM Business Partner selling software on the AS400 then when you purchase an AS400 you get all of the software at zero cost. I am not sure if this still holds true though as I haven't purchased a machine since Nov of 2006 - though I am looking to get another this coming year hopefully.

Here is a blog post I did for the dev machine I (or KrengelTech rather) purchased in 2006: http://mowyourlawn.com/blog/?p=25 It would be interesting to compare that price sheet to today and see if things are getting better or worse or have just "jumped from one column to the next" and we are paying the same - I am not good at making the comparison as I am very "develpoment" focuses and know I need the compilers and WDSC.

Aaron Bartell
http://mowyourlawn.com

Pete Helgren wrote:

Aaron I'll chime in here 'cuz we just got a BladeCenter S with a JS12 and, depending upon what the future holds for hardware configurations, this may be something that more and more folks are looking in to.

A couple of things here. The purchase included both the BCS AND the JS12. If a company already had a BCS and just wanted to add a JS12 to it, the numbers begin to look pretty "interesting". In our case the base system we got was licensed for 10 users (min for i5/OS) and two "developers" (for using RDi and ILE compilers only).

Cost were:

BCS (alone) $8860.00 (6 x 146GB SAS drives for storage)
JS12 (alone) $6246.00 (8GB RAM and 2 x 146 drives for VIOS, etc)
Software, including OS and SWMA $11,826

Now, I don't know how this stacks up for a "production" machine since this guy was leased through the developer discount program, but, if you already had a BCS to stuff the JS12 into, your JS12 would set you back $6246 and your SW would be $11,826 (almost double).

If you had 10 programmers banging on this thing, add another $6360 for RDi and $14,360 for ILE compilers for 8 more developers. Heaven help you if you need Heritage compilers and ATDS (more per user charges) Full boat, 10 developers, using RDi AND ATDS AND compiling both ILE and "heritage" programs would set you back $46,800 ($4680 per user)

This is worst case, of course because of discounts, bundling, etc, etc but it is a pretty hefty investment in any case.

Us open source folks chafe a bit at those numbers......

Pete

Aaron Bartell wrote:

Could you shed any light on the $$ numbers we are talking for small server config? And by "toolset" do you mean the compilers + RDi + RDi-SOA?

I can't keep up with how IBM prices things. Another reason why RPGNextGen.com is becoming more and more appealing. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for the IBM RDi developers having a great tool and then having their marketing screw it up - just sad.

Aaron Bartell
http://mowyourlawn.com

Trevor Perry wrote:

Aaron,

There is still one (small) thing that will ensure that the tools sell. They
are still bundled with the hardware for sale. For new boxes and upgrades,
the price of the tools is part of the entire sale.

That being said, I had a server configured recently and the person doing it
missed the numbers - I got back a small server and the software was 8 times
the cost of the hardware - yes, 8 times. That was mostly the toolset.

Normally, though, the toolset is about 90% of the cost of the server
hardware for a small server config (which is higher than ever). I have
recently done several, and can not explain the pricing in the configurator.
I even asked a prominent (Rational) IBMer to help explain, and that lead to
a dead-end. If I were to decide if Rational were in business to make money
OR to support their customers for modern toolsets, I would have to choose
the former. Which, ironically, the latter will cause the former not to be
met.. The recent price 'cuts' that are included in 'bundles', while they
have helped a little, really have not come close to the suggestions of the
community.

Then again, if you order a new Power6 520 server, you ~must~ order the ECS
modem. Maybe that is how you download upgrades to the toolset? If you price
software high, the customer should expect them to take a long time to
download? :-)

Trevor

On 1/9/09 9:34 AM, "Aaron Bartell" <aaronbartell@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I think adoption will slow considerably given the fact that there is no
low cost entry into the "new WDSC" (i.e. RDi). I still firmly believe
IBM is shooting themselves in the foot by approaching it the way they
did without even giving a single-seat-no-charge copy of RDi with every
compiler purchase. Get it into every shop so it becomes the house-hold
name for doing RPG development, and then when the shop needs more than
one license they get to get out their checkbook (but at this point they
full recognize the ROI).

A 90-day trial will work well enough for existing WDSC users to
determine if they want to pay for RDi, but I hardly believe it is enough
time for an average SEU RPG programmer to make the switch from scratch.

It becomes an up-hill battle to educate people on such an excellent tool
(which I believe it to be the best out there) when the only real way
they can experience it is to get out their empty checkbook. In the past
I have done quite a few articles, sessions, newsletters, etc, promoting
WDSC because it was simply a matter of getting through the politics and
installing it on machines. How do authors/writers promote it now that
it costs so much? I really wish IBM would have taken the MyEclipseIDE
approach of charging maybe $50/year/user and then have all support done
through an online forum and let the community resolve most of the issues
instead of having to open up a PMR. Heck, the IBM'ers on this list are
already doing that to some extent (which I think is absolutely wonderful
btw).

Those are my thoughts for a Friday :-)

Aaron Bartell
http://mowyourlawn.com

Trevor Perry wrote:

David,

Sorry - I finally realized you said 95% of THE shop.

I am finding more and more shops are getting over their problems with the
older versions of WDSC, and are adopting it fresh. If you treat it like it
IS new, you may be able to convert everyone over!

Good luck,
Trevor

On 1/9/09 8:57 AM, "Trevor Perry" <trevor@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: