Joe Pluta wrote:
Based on the description, I would consider the scheduler less of a business application than a forum system. JMO, of course.

Hmmm? What part of a forum system do you think requires complex business logic?

I think I've already covered that.

My point is, what you are dismissing as trivial is not trivial ... and
that forum software is no less a business application than any other
application used by a business.

FWIW: When I refer to 'forum' software, I'm not just talking about
discussion forums ... I'm talking about an entire community site (like
EGL Cafe) that includes forums, blogs, etc.

I agree. But very few forums have things like "find posts based on
my preferences". They have text searches, but nothing that really
requires much business logic. And THAT is why I say that most forums
don't have much business logic.

Define "Business Logic".

In my lexicon, "Business Logic" is the process that businesses use
computers to get their business done. A forum can be as much a part of
a companies business as their ERP system.

I mean, really, if you want to push this argument, we'd have to
return to your list and decide what part of it is actually hard. How
much code do you think is involved in, say, threading? Do you
consider that to be anywhere near the level of complexity of the
sorts of things you've programmed in your career? I certainly don't.

Threading itself ... probably not ... threading in the context of a full
community & forum system, could be. I don't think They are nearly as straight forward as you claim.

Somehow, I suspect, EGL with a hand crafted RPG back end is *NOT*
what IBM is really going to push. This also is JMHO.

What is "IBM"? There are a lot of factions in IBM. There are people
who promote EGL as a cross-platform language. There are those who promote it as a means to modernize existing midrange applications reusing business logic. The former won't push RPG, the latter will.

I can't address this statement ... I don't know the innards of IBM well
enough. All I can say is that, from my observations, IBM isn't pushing
RPG that much.

From my experience, progress for the sake of progress rarely
succeeds ... progress for the sake of new, required, capability
will. If you need capability, and can improve upon the existing
offerings, why not redevelop it?

Cost? If you have something that already works well enough, why reinvent the wheel?

Everything costs. And if you need more capability, then it clearly
doesn't work well enough.

I'm not saying that the Jive software forum software that IBM is using
for the EGL Cafe isn't capable enough ... It's plenty capable.

My only point with my original post is that, if IBM wanted to showcase
EGL, developing the EGL Cafe in EGL would have been a great way to do it.

"IBM Rational User Forum module for Portal"?

Right. But is there enough of a market to justify the cost?

Maybe. Maybe not. Lots of companies need forums now. It's becoming an
intrinsic part of their business plan.

And, FWIW, I think IBM should *REALLY* find an alternative for their own
forums to replace the Domino based stuff they use on sites like
Developerworks (at least the last time I looked at DW).

Authentication is a commodity service.

As part of authentication I should have included managing user preferences and authority levels. These are part of most business applications.

Okay. Still not rocket science. Definitely a business function, though. But not a difficult one.

Nothing is difficult if you look at the individual functions ...
integrating those functions is when things get a bit hairy.

Database requirements for most applications are fairly simplistic
at the core.

Database design for an ERP application far outstrips anything in a forum. If you don't think so, then I don't think you've looked at an
ERP system in a while.

While it's true that I haven't looked at an ERP system in a long time
(very long time) ... IIRC, the database design (at the core) isn't
rocket science. Parts, BOM, Inventory, customers, order, purchases,
vendors, etc. The database isn't all that difficult, but the logic that
drives the database contents *IS* quite involved. 'course things could
have changed. It's been more than 11 years since I've thought about
exploding a BOM.

But, I do agree, an ERP system is probably more complex than a community
/ forum system.

That said ... what if the community / forum system needed to be
integrated into the ERP system? Customer's get authenticated to the
forum system based on their customer information. They can get notified
of important notices based on the products they have purchased in the
past.

I realize that comparing relative difficulty is an imprecise process,
but discussion thread management simply isn't rocket science, and
that's the most difficult thing on your list.

Please don't take this wrong way ... but I don't think you have the
experience to really speak to that. There are a lot of components
involved in my lists and some of them are a lot more complex than you think.

You want to say that forum software is as difficult as, say, order entry, then fine. Be my guest.

Wait a minute ... Order Entry? A forum system is at least as complex as
order entry ... order entry is a simplistic application at best.

We'll just have to have differing opinions on that.

I guess you're right.

I don't know how many people on these lists would agree with you.

Dunno ... depends on how many have developed order entry systems AND
community / forum systems.

When it comes down to it, EVERYTHING can be viewed in simplistic terms
... and everything can be viewed in complex terms.

How hard is it to do a change management system? One might argue that
it's so simple there's no need to automate it ... compile the object,
move it to the target location. Done.

Is this how Implementer (or Aldon or Softlanding) works? Not even close.

At this point I'm quite done with this discussion ... but, to summarize,
you are trivializing a real world business application and saying that
it's beneath the consideration of IBM to be used as a POC for EGL. I'm
saying that it would have been worth IBM's time to eat their own cooking
and develop a community / forum system in EGL to show the world that EGL
can do the job.

david


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