Re: Idle curiosity about EGL Cafe ...

Joe Pluta wrote:

Someone would have to make a business case to IBM that writing EGL Cafe in EGL would make money.

Forum software makes companies money ... Jive software thinks so. And
showcasing EGL's capabilities in a positive way would probably make IBM
money.

Look about halfway down, you'll see comments about the scheduler. Note the reference to "and use inventive technology that suggests which talks the user should attend next based on preferences" - that's actually the most complex business logic. I wrote a routine in RPG that identifies sessions to attend based on tag weights.

Based on the description, I would consider the scheduler less of a
business application than a forum system. JMO, of course.

Now, if that sort of business logic were included in a forum, and highlighted in the "about pages" for the forum, you might change my mind.

That's certainly a worthwhile function for a forum system, imo.

Here's the problem, though. My guess is that EGL Cafe wouldn't require an i. For those worried about EGL somehow threatening RPG development, a forum might be the *worst* concept, because my guess is it would be implemented in Java and Javascript with an SQL interface to something like a MySQL back end.

I think it's just as much a candidate for an i as the scheduling app you
wrote ... the presentation and UI in EGL with the back end processing
(user authentication, message storage, message management, etc) in RPG.

Somehow, I suspect, EGL with a hand crafted RPG back end is *NOT* what
IBM is really going to push. This also is JMHO.

This is a tough argument. Progress for the sake of progress.

From my experience, progress for the sake of progress rarely succeeds
... progress for the sake of new, required, capability will. If you
need capability, and can improve upon the existing offerings, why not
redevelop it?

To be honest, the only way I'd see this making sense is if IBM were planning to *market* the EGL Cafe software. Then they'd be able to create a revenue stream that would justify the money spent developing
the product.

"IBM Rational User Forum module for Portal"?

Honestly, I see your point: writing a forum in EGL would be a great way to showcase EGL. But how much investment would it take to do correctly? And how much revenue would it really generate?

Depends on who's looking at it, I guess. But that's the case for
everything. If I'm looking for a development environment to write a new
system, one of the first things I want to see is what's been written
with it already so I can get a sense of what kind of things it can do.

Part and parcel of IBM's marketing of EGL should be a showcase of
existing applications that you can play with and see the source.

Here's a forum application we wrote ... see how flexible it is ...
here's the source for it ... see how easy it was to write?

If EGL Cafe was written in EGL, would that convince MKS to use EGL for its web development?

No, but that has nothing to do with the capabilities of EGL.

Hey, I'm wrong sometimes <grin>.

This is true. <grin/>

Because to me, that's the real question: how many people on this list
would try to sell their company on EGL if it was used to develop forums? On the other hand, how many would try to sell their company on EGL if it were used to develop a storefront? Or perhaps a search and ordering system for PTFs? Or a system configurator?

Again, it depends on what the company needs. MKS, for instance, needs
forum software more than it needs a store front. The forum software we
use is key to our business. It has many business rules that dictate how
it works and responds.

What application developed in EGL would make it most likely that you would try to convince your company to use it?

Me, none. I have problems with EGL unrelated to what kind of
applications it can generate. These issues are unrelated to my original
question.

My original question was just academic.

But see, Jive SELLS forum software. Do you think it's in IBM's best interests to get into the forum software market? What IBM *should* do is partner with an ISV to use EGL to develop a forum. That would make the most sense.

Ok, so IBM should have gotten a ISV to write forum software and use that
to power EGL Cafe. I'm OK with that concept.

And again, we'll have to disagree. I see very little up there that needs custom business logic.

Bzzzttt... WRONG!

Authentication is a commodity service.

As part of authentication I should have included managing user
preferences and authority levels. These are part of most business
applications.

The database requirements are very simplistic.

Dunno about that ... store the message, store the meta data, store the
threading information, store the user preferences, etc, etc, etc.

Database requirements for most applications are fairly simplistic at the
core.

And while thread management isn't exactly trivial, it doesn't hold a candle to requirements processing or costing or pricing ... or all the stuff we use a business machine for.

Discussion thread management can be very complex. Here's a message,
figure out what messages it's related to. Oh, it came in from a
different input than the primary interface, figure out what messages
it's related to. Can't figure it out adequately, make an educated guess.

Our scheduler did online realtime chats, commenting, voting, tagging,
and authentication via email. Not to mention rendering. That's the
framework for just about everything above.

Then it's not a scheduler ... it's a whole lot more. FWIW: What you
describe there sounds kind of like the beginnings of community based
forum system.

Again, it's an opinion, but in my opinion a forum is very lightweight
when it comes to business rules. I mean, what would you need an i there for?

See above.

If you worry about EGL snuffing out RPG,

I'm not too worried about that, to be honest.

I'd opine that a forum application would actually show how well EGL: does *without* a System i.

Just like any application, it would work with an i ... but, in this
particular case, I think it could work better with an i.

But in the meantime, what you should be showing off is a collaborative effort between the i and EGL - something that integrates enterprise-level business logic and a high-tech user interface. To me, a forum just doesn't do that.

In my opinion, a forum doesn't need an i and it certainly doesn't showcase the business logic capabilities of the box. But that's my opinion.

Neither does a scheduler.

david