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Hmm.  I haven't checked in to running the E1 UI on OAS.  Hadn't heard it
was an option, but then I'm the systems guy and not the app guy.  It's
still not a direction I'd favor but it is a point to consider if iSeries
is truly out of the running.

IxS/IxA/iSCSI, while still involving the iSeries, have to be considered
non-native solutions.  They still involve moving the workload off the
iSeries and in these cases merely using the iSeries as a SAN with some
extra controls.

I talked to our IBMer about the potential to use a 550 standard edition
for WAS; we'll check in to it in more detail.


John A. Jones, CISSP
Americas Information Security Officer
Jones Lang LaSalle, Inc.
V: +1-630-455-2787 F: +1-312-601-1782
john.jones@xxxxxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Wilt, Charles
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 5:00 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Saving the System i: Fight Rather Than Switch

Two points..

1) Websphere isn't your only option if you're not running UI layer on
iSeries, you could of course use Oracle's Application Server (OAS) on
Windows/Linux/UNIX.

2) Have you considered IxA attached boxes for WAS?  You get most of the
iSeries backup/recovery benefits yet the performance of the Intel boxes
for WAS. Plus management of IxA boxes is less since the iSeries does
part of it.

Just a thought,

Charles Wilt
--
iSeries Systems Administrator / Developer Mitsubishi Electric Automotive
America
ph: 513-573-4343
fax: 513-398-1121
  

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jones, John (US)
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 3:33 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Saving the System i: Fight Rather Than Switch

Joe, you might have missed a couple of my recent posts on this so I'll

recap my problem.  We're running Oracle EnterpriseOne (E1) a.k.a. JDE 
OneWorld.  End of recap.  ..  Well, for clarity I'll continue. The 
main
E1 layers are:

- Deployment Server.  Manages object development activities, pushes 
updates to other layers.  Only available for Windows; we run it on an 
IxS.
- Database.  DB2/400 or just about any other major database out there.
- Application.  Can run on i5/OS, Windows, or *nix.
- UI.  While Citrix was an option, it's been EOLed.  The preferred UI,

i.e. the one that is supported and is seeing enhancements, runs on 
WebSphere App Server.  Supported OSes include i5/OS, Windows, and a 
few flavors of Unix.  There's also a Windows fat client but it's 
really fat (4+GB client footprint) and isn't suitable for non-LAN 
deployment (it's what the developers use).

So while we have choices they are somewhat limited.  First preference,

and what we're doing today, is to run everything possible on the 
iSeries.  However, we'll run out of gas shortly and are facing a huge 
expense to upgrade to boxes (prod + DR) to handle the workload that 
the app will see over the next 12-15 months.  Huge as in potentially 7

figures.  Management is balking and rightfully so.

Now, running consolidated has some nice advantages.  Besides simpler 
admin there are resource benefits: CPU that's not needed for one layer

(say, the UI) can be used for another layer (batch work).  And all of 
the other traditional iSeries work management stuff that you know 
already.

So one thought is to move WAS off the iSeries.  This reduces costs 
nicely but also adds complexity and starts to eat away at the 
advantages to running on a single system image.

To directly address your points:
- Can't use Tomcat as WAS is the supported app server.
- Linux itself isn't ruled out but as a firm our first choice is 
Windows.  We are a mostly MS-centric shop for things non-iSeries.
- As to licensing, WAS is 'free' with E1 so the only licensing that 
matters is the OS and Windows Server 2003 Enterprise (needed for >4 GB

RAM support) costs 5% of a single i5/OS core license.
- The Dell wouldn't really need to be backed up as it wouldn't be 
running business logic or storing data; it would only be running the 
UI.
A fresh WAS server from OS install to running WAS server would only 
take a couple of hours.  Or we could back it up to the SAN.  Our WAN 
backbone is now GigaMAN so bandwidth is not a concern.
- Database will stay iSeries.  Numbers have not yet been run to see if

the existing box can handle it; this has to be investigated.
- Business logic will stay iSeries; same caveat as above.
- The apps are a mix of C and Java and is generated by the deployment 
server directly or by submitting compiles to the iSeries.
- Appliances and whatnot are out; we can only run vendor-supported 
devices and in fact have an Oracle-certified installation.

I agree that WAS isn't really a great app for the iSeries to run.  My 
personal fear (which can be at odds with what's best for the firm) is 
that if WAS moves off, what's to keep the app logic and/or database 
from moving off when the system needs the next upgrade and management 
balks again?


John A. Jones, CISSP
Americas Information Security Officer
Jones Lang LaSalle, Inc.
V: +1-630-455-2787 F: +1-312-601-1782
john.jones@xxxxxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Joe Pluta
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 1:28 PM
To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'
Subject: RE: Saving the System i: Fight Rather Than Switch

From: Jones, John (US)

So for under $25K I'd have 16 cores, 32GB RAM, and all the
trimmings.

Can the iSeries compete with that?  Because like it or not, iSeries 
iNtegration advantages or not, like the platform or not,
this is what
it boils down to.

Nope.  This is NOT a workload for an iSeries.  You are better served 
with a dedicated web appliance.  Personally, though, I'd go with Linux

or FreeBSD running Apache/Tomcat rather than WebSphere on Windows 
because the licensing would be much cheaper.

You know I'm one of the biggest iSeries evangelists out there, John, 
and I'm saying specifically that this is the WRONG JOB for that box.
Unless, of course, you're worried about backup and data security.  
Which you can get on the Dell, but it will cost a bit more than the 
$25K you've mentioned, especially if you have separate, redundant 
database which require mirroring.

On the other hand, what is your business logic?  Are you running RPG 
and using DB2?  Because if you are you can have the business logic on 
the iSeries, along with the database, and then have a very reliable 
easy to backup solution which probably wouldn't require data mirroring

because of the added reliability of the box.  You could do this on a 
very low-cost iSeries.

Then you could in turn reduce the size of the web appliance and get 
two, for failover purposes, and maybe even invest in another Internet 
connection (and redundant switches and so on).

The problem is not the iSeries, it's the business requirement.  If you

don't need data security, the web appliance is a great option.  But if

you want both data security and relatively low-cost web serving, a 
combination solution might be the best.

Joe


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