RE: Saving the System i: Fight Rather Than Switch -- MIDRANGE-L

Two points..

1) Websphere isn't your only option if you're not running UI layer on
iSeries, you could of course use Oracle's Application Server (OAS) on
Windows/Linux/UNIX.

2) Have you considered IxA attached boxes for WAS?  You get most of the
iSeries backup/recovery benefits yet the performance of the Intel boxes
for WAS. Plus management of IxA boxes is less since the iSeries does
part of it.

Just a thought,

Charles Wilt
--
iSeries Systems Administrator / Developer
Mitsubishi Electric Automotive America
ph: 513-573-4343
fax: 513-398-1121

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jones, John (US)
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 3:33 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
Subject: RE: Saving the System i: Fight Rather Than Switch

Joe, you might have missed a couple of my recent posts on this so I'll
recap my problem.  We're running Oracle EnterpriseOne (E1) a.k.a. JDE
OneWorld.  End of recap.  ..  Well, for clarity I'll 
continue. The main
E1 layers are:

- Deployment Server.  Manages object development activities, pushes
updates to other layers.  Only available for Windows; we run it on an
IxS.
- Database.  DB2/400 or just about any other major database out there.
- Application.  Can run on i5/OS, Windows, or *nix.
- UI.  While Citrix was an option, it's been EOLed.  The preferred UI,
i.e. the one that is supported and is seeing enhancements, runs on
WebSphere App Server.  Supported OSes include i5/OS, Windows, 
and a few
flavors of Unix.  There's also a Windows fat client but it's 
really fat
(4+GB client footprint) and isn't suitable for non-LAN 
deployment (it's
what the developers use).

So while we have choices they are somewhat limited.  First preference,
and what we're doing today, is to run everything possible on the
iSeries.  However, we'll run out of gas shortly and are facing a huge
expense to upgrade to boxes (prod + DR) to handle the 
workload that the
app will see over the next 12-15 months.  Huge as in potentially 7
figures.  Management is balking and rightfully so.

Now, running consolidated has some nice advantages.  Besides simpler
admin there are resource benefits: CPU that's not needed for one layer
(say, the UI) can be used for another layer (batch work).  And all of
the other traditional iSeries work management stuff that you know
already.

So one thought is to move WAS off the iSeries.  This reduces costs
nicely but also adds complexity and starts to eat away at the 
advantages
to running on a single system image.

To directly address your points:
- Can't use Tomcat as WAS is the supported app server.
- Linux itself isn't ruled out but as a firm our first choice is
Windows.  We are a mostly MS-centric shop for things non-iSeries.
- As to licensing, WAS is 'free' with E1 so the only licensing that
matters is the OS and Windows Server 2003 Enterprise (needed for >4 GB
RAM support) costs 5% of a single i5/OS core license.
- The Dell wouldn't really need to be backed up as it wouldn't be
running business logic or storing data; it would only be 
running the UI.
A fresh WAS server from OS install to running WAS server 
would only take
a couple of hours.  Or we could back it up to the SAN.  Our 
WAN backbone
is now GigaMAN so bandwidth is not a concern.
- Database will stay iSeries.  Numbers have not yet been run to see if
the existing box can handle it; this has to be investigated.
- Business logic will stay iSeries; same caveat as above.
- The apps are a mix of C and Java and is generated by the deployment
server directly or by submitting compiles to the iSeries.
- Appliances and whatnot are out; we can only run vendor-supported
devices and in fact have an Oracle-certified installation.

I agree that WAS isn't really a great app for the iSeries to run.  My
personal fear (which can be at odds with what's best for the firm) is
that if WAS moves off, what's to keep the app logic and/or 
database from
moving off when the system needs the next upgrade and management balks
again?

John A. Jones, CISSP
Americas Information Security Officer
Jones Lang LaSalle, Inc.
V: +1-630-455-2787 F: +1-312-601-1782
john.jones@xxxxxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Joe Pluta
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 1:28 PM
To: 'Midrange Systems Technical Discussion'
Subject: RE: Saving the System i: Fight Rather Than Switch

From: Jones, John (US)

So for under $25K I'd have 16 cores, 32GB RAM, and all the

trimmings.

Can the iSeries compete with that?  Because like it or not, iSeries 
iNtegration advantages or not, like the platform or not,

this is what

it boils down to.


Nope.  This is NOT a workload for an iSeries.  You are better served
with a dedicated web appliance.  Personally, though, I'd go with Linux
or FreeBSD running Apache/Tomcat rather than WebSphere on Windows
because the licensing would be much cheaper.

You know I'm one of the biggest iSeries evangelists out 
there, John, and
I'm saying specifically that this is the WRONG JOB for that box.
Unless, of course, you're worried about backup and data 
security.  Which
you can get on the Dell, but it will cost a bit more than the $25K
you've mentioned, especially if you have separate, redundant database
which require mirroring.

On the other hand, what is your business logic?  Are you 
running RPG and
using DB2?  Because if you are you can have the business logic on the
iSeries, along with the database, and then have a very 
reliable easy to
backup solution which probably wouldn't require data mirroring because
of the added reliability of the box.  You could do this on a very
low-cost iSeries.

Then you could in turn reduce the size of the web appliance 
and get two,
for failover purposes, and maybe even invest in another Internet
connection (and redundant switches and so on).

The problem is not the iSeries, it's the business requirement.  If you
don't need data security, the web appliance is a great option.  But if
you want both data security and relatively low-cost web serving, a
combination solution might be the best.

Joe


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