Re: [CPF0000] The globalization of COMMON, or is this the right direction? -- MIDRANGE-L

Steve,

I understand how the global economy has impacted you. I have read about iton Midrange-L on more than one occasion. On the other hand, for every horrorstory you have, there are dozens of success stories. I totally agree withyou about the mismanagement of foreign workers, and the replacement of anexperienced programmer with a less skilled one is a poor business decision.There are many many cases I have personally experienced where these thingsdid not happen.

But how is that any different than the old Arthur Andersen, for example. Iworked at a company in Australia who was willing to pay AA top dollar fortheir most inexperienced coders. It was all about learning on the job at theclients expense. I saw horrible code, I saw lack of commitment to thecustomer, I saw many business decisions that I did not agree with. Sincethen, the business decisions changed from paying TOO much for bad code topaying TOO little and getting the same standard of code. This is not aboutIndia, or the businessmen who work with companies from India.

In the global economy, there will be more and more jobs that can be doneoverseas. I agree that the design and the business decisions for a UScompany need to be made at an analyst level ~in~ the US. The level of jobthat can be performed in each of these places needs to settle. I think thecurrent teething stage is reaching an end, and it will eventually settle tothe right level.

You happen to have been in an industry where you were stepped on by a bunchof quick-buck guys. And I bet, many of those were Americans. How does thatmake Rajan a bad candidate for the COMMON board? As we move INTO the globaleconomy, your personal situation is one of many that will play out. I amsure you are feeling raw about it. But that does not make a global economythe wrong thing - just a personal bias on your behalf.

I am not attempting in any way to negate your feelings on the subject,simply, I do believe the global economy is an eventuality. Fighting it bybeing negative about a COMMON board nominee is not the answer.


Trevor

----- Original Message -----From: "Stephen Landess"Subject: Re: [CPF0000] The globalization of COMMON,or is this the rightdirection?

You obviously don't know me very well, Trevor.

I do NOT have the narrow view of the world that you ascribe to me.  I

haven't yet read Friedman's book, but I have read many of his articlesthat

follow the same line of thought.

Our Congress did a great disservice to American workers (at the behest of
multinational corporations) by their expansion of the non-immigrant worker
visa programs in the 1990's.

I have seen my business destroyed by my American client companies' use of
non-immigrant H-1B and L-1 workers that come mostly from India to work
either directly for them or through body shops here in the United States.

My company, Integration Services, had 120 employees in 1998. Today -FOUR.

I'll be filing for bankruptcy later this year.

In 1996 we actually attempted to set up our own offshore operation inIndia- however, at the time, the infrastructure costs were prohibitive - wewere

told it would cost 12,000/mo for a leased line to connect our U.S. offices

to the Indian subsidiary...we didn't have the volume of work to supportsuch

costs and didn't have the deep pockets of a Tata, Wipro, or Infosys to
afford such overhead, so we dropped the idea.

I have also been witness to a major outsourcing project for a client in
Austin, during my five-year tenure there.

I saw one Indian firm utilizing B-1 (visitor) visas (illegally) to bring
their workers over for three-month stints, requiring us to train another
Indian every quarter.  A call to the Bureau of Immigration and Customs
Enforcment (ICE) about this issue fell on deaf ears.  After a complaint to
the company's ethics department about the illegality of these workers,
several were sent back to India.

I saw numerous missed deadlines, poor quality coding, and mismanagement

everywhere, both by he client and by the Indian firms. These firms arethe

Indian incarnation of the American "Big-Six" consulting firms - the coders

ALWAYS have two years or less experience - NEVER more. Programs thatwould

take an experience American programmer/analyst a day or two to code would
take a week or more to get right.

I also saw blatant gender discrimination by young male Indians against
female American workers, most of whom were afraid to complain because they
knew that their necks could be on the chopping block.

I also learned that many Indians don't know how to say NO. If you askthem

if they can do something, they say yes, but many times they don't follow
through and deliver on their promises - I believe that this is a cultural
issue.

Bottom Line:  When they nod their head up and down, it doesn't mean that
they understand you...

I personally heard an executive of my client company say:
"Who cares if they (the Indians) have to rewrite the code three or four
times to get it right - they only cost us 20.00 per hour." (blatant
disregard for the value of TIME)

I saw an order entry system that was outsourced to an Indian firm go from

having two employees and three American contractors. Today the Indianfirm

has over THIRTY programmers working on this software product (where's the

cost savings now???). The project I witnessed was at least as f*cked upas

the project that Frederick Brooks describes in "The Mythical Man-Month".
(Which I HAVE read, and highly recommend.)

I saw another Oracle project that was outsourced to a Phillipine companyfor

a fixed bid of 10,000 dollars.  They were supposed to deliver a finished

product in three months. After having several offshore workers on it for11/2 years, the client fired them and hired a local consulting firm - theTWO

American consultants they hired started again from scratch and had a
completed product in two months (but it cost substantially more than
10,000).

What value do you assign to the lost year and a half?

In my opinion, the RIGHT way to outsource projects is to put American
workers (either employees or consultants) INSTEAD of Indian workers on the
front lines here in the USA to be the liason personnel for a project and
make them accountable for project timelines, but as far as I can tell very
few of the outsourcers are willing to hire Americans for these jobs - they
prefer to bring over their Indian employees instead, and most clients
consequently get a substandard product as a result.

Regards,
Steve

From: "Trevor Perry" <tperry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion <midrange-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Midrange Systems Technical Discussion" <midrange-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [CPF0000] The globalization of COMMON,or is this the right
direction?
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 08:41:48 -0500

Steve,

Welcome to the new world - the one that is global.

Your narrow perspective is disappointing. I encourage you to read Thomas
Friedman's book The World is Flat. IMHO, it is designed to educate people
with the same perspective you have. If you get one thing out of the book,
it
would be that for every dollar invested in India - whether technology,
jobs,
infrastructure, etc - the returns TO the US are tenfold. With your
inability
to see beyond the borders of the US, your perspective can only be a
detriment to the US of now and the future - the one that plays ~well~ in
the

global economy, and leads the way. Your narrow view would have the US asan

economic follower - not the rightful place, according to recent history.

To add to that, your one-man personal view of the world does not sit well
in

regard to COMMON. Not being an active member, your view of COMMON issimply

that of an outsider. The current incarnation of COMMON is a global user
group. People come from all over the world to be educated, to be updated

with the latest technologies, to talk to the leaders in the System iworld.

By your assessment, it would be best for COMMON to ignore these people.
With
someone like Rajan on the board, COMMON will have a first hand
understanding
of the new global economy, the place that System i has in that new global
economy, and how COMMON can attract people from all over the world to
attend
conferences and be part of the user community.

I am disappointed in your narrowmindedness in this regard. A personal hot
button of a non-active member should not have an impact on a vote for a

board member. Slinging mud from the sidelines does nothing but stir thepotof ignorance (and by that I mean, lack of knowledge, not stupidity).Steve,

if you want this to change, I encourage you to become an ACTIVE COMMON
member, and if you think the board needs a  change of direction, then run

for a board seat. This would at least be a pro-active stance, and youwould

be someone who would be an activist for change and growth. At the same
time,
you would not be making personal attacks on a prospective board member who
brings real System i and management experience to the table, and who
appears
committed to adding value to the board. I would hate to think your narrow

perspective and personal attack would result in a the election of anominee

who is running for personal glory and has little to contribute.

I encourage you to read Thomas Friedman. I encourage you to become active
in
the COMMON community.

Yours,
Trevor
tperry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Landess"
Subject: [CPF0000] The globalization of COMMON,or is this the right
direction?


> All -
>

> I have not been to a COMMON conference in quite a while, but I had> heard

> that the next conference is being held in Miami. As I was looking at
> COMMON's web site yesterday, I happened to click on the link that shows
> the candidates in the next board of directors election (
> http://www.common.org/about/candidates.html ).
>
> As I read the candidate's statements, I noticed that one candidate
(Rajan

> Narayanan) is a senior VP for a company named Mindtree that promotes> the> outsourcing of work to India (> http://www.common.org/about/rajan.html ).

> That, of course, immediately pushed one of my hot buttons. This
candidate
> apparently earns his salary by taking jobs from North Americans and
giving
> them to workers in India. If this is not the case, I would surely like
to
> see his employee list!
>
> In fact, a quick visit to his employer's web page to view current job
> openings ( http://www.mindtree.com/crs/opngs.php ) confirmed what I
> already suspected - that Mindtree probably does NOT hire technical
people
> in the United States!  Of 73 positions being advertised, only ONE is in
> the USA - and it is for a "Manager of Business Development" in
Schaumburg,
> Illinois.
>
> It's no secret to anyone who subscribes to midrange-L or midrange-jobs
how
> I feel about outsourcing American jobs overseas. Does anyone see
anything
> wrong with the message that COMMON seems to be sending with this
> nomination?
>
> COMMON purports to be an education provider, and it has programs
designed
> to work with schools to bring young programmers into the midrange
> community. It even has a group calling itself the YIPS (Young iSeries
> Professionals). Ostensibly, this education is intended to benefit the
> iSeries community in North America. The last time I checked, COMMON was
> still based in Chicago, Illinois, and not in Bangalore, India.
>
> I have heard that not many people vote for the board candidates because
> only those with individual memberships and the member representatives
for
> a company are entitled to vote. It is my understanding that with people

> moving around in the industry and within their companies, COMMON has> had

> trouble figuring out exactly who the member reps actually are.
>
> If I am allowed a little conjecture here, a candidate with a large IT

> labor force could actually "buy" a seat on COMMON's board by telling> his

> employees to purchase individual memberships and that the company would
> provide reimbursement. Also, the prospect that COMMON's membership list
> could then be available to an outsourcing firm really bothers me.
>
> I am planning to buy a membership so that I can stand up for what I
> believe. If you also see a problem with COMMON's direction, I urge you
to
> join COMMON and vote too.
>
> By the way...I'm sure that Rajan appreciates IBM for their ongoing
> investment in India.  See
>
http://news.com.com/IBM+to+pour+6+billion+into+India/2100-1014_3-6080346.html?tag=st.ref.goo
> or http://tinyurl.com/eengr
>
> On that note, I'm wondering why IBM doens't just pull up and move their

> headquarters to India! They could get rid of hundreds (or thousands)> of

> overpaid executives in Armonk and Rochester and replace them with far
> cheaper workers in Bangalore...
>
> Thanks for your time,
> Steve Landess
> Austin, Texas
> (512) 423-0935

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