Re: [CPF0000] The globalization of COMMON, or is this the right direction? -- MIDRANGE-L

You obviously don't know me very well, Trevor.

I do NOT have the narrow view of the world that you ascribe to me. Ihaven't yet read Friedman's book, but I have read many of his articles thatfollow the same line of thought.

Our Congress did a great disservice to American workers (at the behest ofmultinational corporations) by their expansion of the non-immigrant workervisa programs in the 1990's.

I have seen my business destroyed by my American client companies' use ofnon-immigrant H-1B and L-1 workers that come mostly from India to workeither directly for them or through body shops here in the United States.


My company, Integration Services, had 120 employees in 1998.  Today - FOUR.
I'll be filing for bankruptcy later this year.

In 1996 we actually attempted to set up our own offshore operation in India- however, at the time, the infrastructure costs were prohibitive - we weretold it would cost 12,000/mo for a leased line to connect our U.S. officesto the Indian subsidiary...we didn't have the volume of work to support suchcosts and didn't have the deep pockets of a Tata, Wipro, or Infosys toafford such overhead, so we dropped the idea.

I have also been witness to a major outsourcing project for a client inAustin, during my five-year tenure there.

I saw one Indian firm utilizing B-1 (visitor) visas (illegally) to bringtheir workers over for three-month stints, requiring us to train anotherIndian every quarter. A call to the Bureau of Immigration and CustomsEnforcment (ICE) about this issue fell on deaf ears. After a complaint tothe company's ethics department about the illegality of these workers,several were sent back to India.

I saw numerous missed deadlines, poor quality coding, and mismanagementeverywhere, both by he client and by the Indian firms. These firms are theIndian incarnation of the American "Big-Six" consulting firms - the codersALWAYS have two years or less experience - NEVER more. Programs that wouldtake an experience American programmer/analyst a day or two to code wouldtake a week or more to get right.

I also saw blatant gender discrimination by young male Indians againstfemale American workers, most of whom were afraid to complain because theyknew that their necks could be on the chopping block.

I also learned that many Indians don't know how to say NO. If you ask themif they can do something, they say yes, but many times they don't followthrough and deliver on their promises - I believe that this is a culturalissue.

Bottom Line: When they nod their head up and down, it doesn't mean thatthey understand you...


I personally heard an executive of my client company say:

"Who cares if they (the Indians) have to rewrite the code three or fourtimes to get it right - they only cost us 20.00 per hour." (blatantdisregard for the value of TIME)

I saw an order entry system that was outsourced to an Indian firm go fromhaving two employees and three American contractors. Today the Indian firmhas over THIRTY programmers working on this software product (where's thecost savings now???). The project I witnessed was at least as f*cked up asthe project that Frederick Brooks describes in "The Mythical Man-Month".(Which I HAVE read, and highly recommend.)

I saw another Oracle project that was outsourced to a Phillipine company fora fixed bid of 10,000 dollars. They were supposed to deliver a finishedproduct in three months. After having several offshore workers on it for 11/2 years, the client fired them and hired a local consulting firm - the TWOAmerican consultants they hired started again from scratch and had acompleted product in two months (but it cost substantially more than10,000).


What value do you assign to the lost year and a half?

In my opinion, the RIGHT way to outsource projects is to put Americanworkers (either employees or consultants) INSTEAD of Indian workers on thefront lines here in the USA to be the liason personnel for a project andmake them accountable for project timelines, but as far as I can tell veryfew of the outsourcers are willing to hire Americans for these jobs - theyprefer to bring over their Indian employees instead, and most clientsconsequently get a substandard product as a result.


Regards,
Steve

From: "Trevor Perry" <tperry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion <midrange-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Midrange Systems Technical Discussion" <midrange-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>

Subject: Re: [CPF0000] The globalization of COMMON,or is this the rightdirection?

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 08:41:48 -0500

Steve,

Welcome to the new world - the one that is global.

Your narrow perspective is disappointing. I encourage you to read Thomas
Friedman's book The World is Flat. IMHO, it is designed to educate people

with the same perspective you have. If you get one thing out of the book,itwould be that for every dollar invested in India - whether technology,jobs,infrastructure, etc - the returns TO the US are tenfold. With yourinability

to see beyond the borders of the US, your perspective can only be a

detriment to the US of now and the future - the one that plays ~well~ inthe

global economy, and leads the way. Your narrow view would have the US as an
economic follower - not the rightful place, according to recent history.

To add to that, your one-man personal view of the world does not sit wellin

regard to COMMON. Not being an active member, your view of COMMON is simply
that of an outsider. The current incarnation of COMMON is a global user
group. People come from all over the world to be educated, to be updated
with the latest technologies, to talk to the leaders in the System i world.

By your assessment, it would be best for COMMON to ignore these people.Withsomeone like Rajan on the board, COMMON will have a first handunderstanding

of the new global economy, the place that System i has in that new global

economy, and how COMMON can attract people from all over the world toattend

conferences and be part of the user community.

I am disappointed in your narrowmindedness in this regard. A personal hot
button of a non-active member should not have an impact on a vote for a
board member. Slinging mud from the sidelines does nothing but stir the pot
of ignorance (and by that I mean, lack of knowledge, not stupidity). Steve,
if you want this to change, I encourage you to become an ACTIVE COMMON
member, and if you think the board needs a  change of direction, then run
for a board seat. This would at least be a pro-active stance, and you would

be someone who would be an activist for change and growth. At the sametime,

you would not be making personal attacks on a prospective board member who

brings real System i and management experience to the table, and whoappears

committed to adding value to the board. I would hate to think your narrow
perspective and personal attack would result in a the election of a nominee
who is running for personal glory and has little to contribute.

I encourage you to read Thomas Friedman. I encourage you to become activein

the COMMON community.

Yours,
Trevor
tperry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Landess"
Subject: [CPF0000] The globalization of COMMON,or is this the right
direction?


> All -
>
> I have not been to a COMMON conference in quite a while, but I had heard
> that the next conference is being held in Miami. As I was looking at
> COMMON's web site yesterday, I happened to click on the link that shows
> the candidates in the next board of directors election (
> http://www.common.org/about/candidates.html ).
>

> As I read the candidate's statements, I noticed that one candidate(Rajan

> Narayanan) is a senior VP for a company named Mindtree that promotes the
> outsourcing of work to India ( http://www.common.org/about/rajan.html ).

> That, of course, immediately pushed one of my hot buttons. Thiscandidate> apparently earns his salary by taking jobs from North Americans andgiving> them to workers in India. If this is not the case, I would surely liketo

> see his employee list!
>
> In fact, a quick visit to his employer's web page to view current job
> openings ( http://www.mindtree.com/crs/opngs.php ) confirmed what I

> already suspected - that Mindtree probably does NOT hire technicalpeople

> in the United States!  Of 73 positions being advertised, only ONE is in

> the USA - and it is for a "Manager of Business Development" inSchaumburg,

> Illinois.
>

> It's no secret to anyone who subscribes to midrange-L or midrange-jobshow> I feel about outsourcing American jobs overseas. Does anyone seeanything

> wrong with the message that COMMON seems to be sending with this
> nomination?
>

> COMMON purports to be an education provider, and it has programsdesigned

> to work with schools to bring young programmers into the midrange
> community. It even has a group calling itself the YIPS (Young iSeries
> Professionals). Ostensibly, this education is intended to benefit the
> iSeries community in North America. The last time I checked, COMMON was
> still based in Chicago, Illinois, and not in Bangalore, India.
>
> I have heard that not many people vote for the board candidates because

> only those with individual memberships and the member representativesfor

> a company are entitled to vote. It is my understanding that with people
> moving around in the industry and within their companies, COMMON has had
> trouble figuring out exactly who the member reps actually are.
>
> If I am allowed a little conjecture here, a candidate with a large IT
> labor force could actually "buy" a seat on COMMON's board by telling his
> employees to purchase individual memberships and that the company would
> provide reimbursement. Also, the prospect that COMMON's membership list
> could then be available to an outsourcing firm really bothers me.
>
> I am planning to buy a membership so that I can stand up for what I

> believe. If you also see a problem with COMMON's direction, I urge youto

> join COMMON and vote too.
>
> By the way...I'm sure that Rajan appreciates IBM for their ongoing
> investment in India.  See

>http://news.com.com/IBM+to+pour+6+billion+into+India/2100-1014_3-6080346.html?tag=st.ref.goo

> or http://tinyurl.com/eengr
>
> On that note, I'm wondering why IBM doens't just pull up and move their
> headquarters to India!  They could get rid of hundreds (or thousands) of
> overpaid executives in Armonk and Rochester and replace them with far
> cheaper workers in Bangalore...
>
> Thanks for your time,
> Steve Landess
> Austin, Texas
> (512) 423-0935

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