Re: FW: FW: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 187

LOL! Good wrap up Joe.

Any programmer who has changed jobs, for a similar position, between 2000 and now will tell you that salaries dropped precipitously after Y2K and have continued to decline. I changed jobs 4 times because of layoffs since 2000. My salary dropped each time except the most recent, 6 months ago. The most recent job change was a 2% increase from the previous job. Nothing to shout about, and I had to push hard to get that. I am now making rougly 30% less than I did in 2000. Virtually every programmer I have spoken to has a similar story. Anyone who believes that average programmer salaries haven't dropped has their head in the sand, or somewhere other than firmly on their shoulders.

I know Shadrach will come back and say that he changed jobs and his salary hasn't decreased. I want to point out that I stated "for a similar position". We're not talking about people changing jobs to become managers, consultants, contractors, construction workers, etc.

Karl
---- Joe Pluta <joepluta@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

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From: Shadrach Scott [mailto:shadrachscott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]

The bigger and most undeniable fact is that outsourcing just transfers
wealth out of the
American middle class to outsourcing companies (and to a small degree
the
employees of those corporations) and to the primary shareholders of
multinational companies. It's a short term redistribution at best,
since it
is the disposable income of the American middle class that has
supported a
significant segment of the growth of the world's economy in the first
place.

I have been looking at articles and statistics on the web this evening
and can not find a source that would back this comment up. Can you point
me to a source to back up your "undeniable fact".

This part is simple, and there's nothing I can do to convince you if you
don't see the obvious: any foreign programmer takes money from an American
middle class worker. Typically even if that person can find another job, it
pays less and has fewer benefits.

I am not finding the numbers that support your point. You claim it is
"simple math" but I don't find any numbers that even start to support
your claim.

Shadrach, if you think the average American is better off today than two,
three, five or ten years ago, then good for you. We can stop this
conversation right now, because you live in a different universe, and it
really doesn't matter what we discuss.

You can quote all the government statistics you want. Remember, the
government also says the CPI only went up 3% per year, yet three
staples--gasoline, milk and natural gas--all have risen nearly 100% in the
last couple of years. Health care premiums rose 35% between 2000 and 2004
alone.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore. If you think outsourcing is good,
then please, go to your local Union hall and shout it to the rafters.

We'll send flowers.

Joe

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