Re: FW: FW: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 187

I'm with Shadrach. Replace capitalism with what? Bureaucrats? Also cooking the CPI numbers would require such a giant conspiracy that it is unfathomable. I have been a technician since 1965 and I've never felt I had it made except for a short time when I had been in the business about 18 months, went to a job fair, got about 10 requests for visits to job sites. I thought for a very short time that I must be brilliant but was soon rudely awakened. The economy has had a very good 15 years except for a little blip after Y2K. We are losing about 7 % of the jobs every year and gaining about the same. I would love to see all corporate welfare eliminated and feel that precipitates some of the really bad decisions because some of these cash cow company are so hep on going to the latest technology (read Microsoft) that they are willing to throw everything out for very marginal benefits and nobody ever pays a price for these failures.

Of course it would only take another layoff to get me thinking about unions, etc. and I sympathize with your sentiments if you are not working; I really do. The big problem with Iseries now, in my opinion, is that the young managers do not want IBM and procedural languages. Their friends are not using it and they don't want to either. I have been in two shops where they have made massive conversions from Iseries to Microsoft servers to such chaos that one of them had to sell a division (actually give it away) and the other is still a work in progress. Outsourcing was accelerated during the boom of the late 90's and I believe it will run its course and the tide is already turning.

Things got too hot in the 90's and there had to be a correction because too many people got into the field. We had a medical doctor working in my shop as an Access contract programmer because she could make more money and work better hours - I am not making this up. I believe IT is still a high demand profession and the college students must as well since IT is still one of the leading majors for recent grads according to all the publications that I see. I have to admit that I am surprised by that being the case.

I believe that things will cycle back around toward quality. In the meantime, keep learning all you can.

Joe C.

kabbott1@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
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LOL! Good wrap up Joe.

Any programmer who has changed jobs, for a similar position, between 2000 and now will tell you that salaries dropped precipitously after Y2K and have continued to decline. I changed jobs 4 times because of layoffs since 2000. My salary dropped each time except the most recent, 6 months ago. The most recent job change was a 2% increase from the previous job. Nothing to shout about, and I had to push hard to get that. I am now making rougly 30% less than I did in 2000. Virtually every programmer I have spoken to has a similar story. Anyone who believes that average programmer salaries haven't dropped has their head in the sand, or somewhere other than firmly on their shoulders.

I know Shadrach will come back and say that he changed jobs and his salary hasn't decreased. I want to point out that I stated "for a similar position". We're not talking about people changing jobs to become managers, consultants, contractors, construction workers, etc.

Karl
---- Joe Pluta wrote:

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From: Shadrach Scott [mailto:shadrachscott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]

The bigger and most undeniable fact is that outsourcing just transfers
wealth out of the
American middle class to outsourcing companies (and to a small degree
the
employees of those corporations) and to the primary shareholders of
multinational companies. It's a short term redistribution at best,
since it
is the disposable income of the American middle class that has
supported a
significant segment of the growth of the world's economy in the first
place.

I have been looking at articles and statistics on the web this evening
and can not find a source that would back this comment up. Can you point
me to a source to back up your "undeniable fact".

This part is simple, and there's nothing I can do to convince you if you
don't see the obvious: any foreign programmer takes money from an American
middle class worker. Typically even if that person can find another job, it
pays less and has fewer benefits.

I am not finding the numbers that support your point. You claim it is
"simple math" but I don't find any numbers that even start to support
your claim.

Shadrach, if you think the average American is better off today than two,
three, five or ten years ago, then good for you. We can stop this
conversation right now, because you live in a different universe, and it
really doesn't matter what we discuss.

You can quote all the government statistics you want. Remember, the
government also says the CPI only went up 3% per year, yet three
staples--gasoline, milk and natural gas--all have risen nearly 100% in the
last couple of years. Health care premiums rose 35% between 2000 and 2004
alone.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore. If you think outsourcing is good,
then please, go to your local Union hall and shout it to the rafters.

We'll send flowers.

Joe

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