Re: DB Maintenance Design Patterns -- WEB400

Maurice,

What is it that gives an employee with a disability, or any employee for
that matter, the right to disable javascript on his work computer? And why
should they? What is the argument?

And what about HTML5 and CSS3 should there also be EU rules forbidding
using these?

I think I can speak for many that the society has to provide accessibility
for most possible people and persons with a disability has the right to be
helped in the best possible way, but that right doesn’t include the right
to refuse to use a common worldwide used and available technology - that is
a complete misunderstanding.

Javascript is an older technology than CSS and javascript is a natural
component of coding webpages as HTML rendering is and it has been it by
decades. Besides that javascript comes with all available browsers and is
an important component if you want to provide cross browser/device support
and thereby common accessibility.

Besides that javascript is activated as standard in all browsers and IMO,
anyone that deliberately adds disability to his/hers browser has only them
self to blame.

To demand EU legislation that any webpage should be able to run in any
persons f***** up browser setting (hereby disabling processing of program
code that is an international ISO/IEC industry standard) as the lowest
common denominator and then use people with a disability as the platform
for the argumentation is to me farfetched and completely taking out of
context.

The world is changing with the speed of light, yesterday we had analog
telephones, max 8bytes pr. second telegraphs from the post office, analog
data transmission and radio beacons for ship navigation, today we have
digital telephones, digital 20Mbit pr. second e-mails from our homes,
gigabyte digital data transmission and GPS satellites for the same and no
one is dreaming of producing a training or film video on VHS or Betamax
because a little stubborn nostalgic group still prefers or only has access
to that technology.

What you are arguing and suggestion is that those of us that develops
modern WEB 2.0 UI’s should start with going back several decades and
develop our base systems based on what technology was available at that
time to support users that prefers that technology and then add features to
make the system more “modern” – and that is as technologic idiotic as to
demand VW to develop a Golf VII based on a Golf I chassis from 1974 and
still get 5 stars in the current EuroNCAP standard security crash test.

In a broader sense the term “availability/accessibility” has in the resent
years got a new meaning, because who has to be available/accessible to
whom? “I want this and that, I want it today, I wanted it yesterday and I
want more tomorrow, because then my demand all has changed” doesn’t seems
to apply to the current world we live in.

Yesterday is in a technological sense not only bygones, yesterday is for
many people real bygones and those who will survive are those who manage to
adapt to the current technology and situation.

Nobody will survive making software to an IBM I and still compatible with a
System/36 5363 or a first generation browser – technological bygones has to
be bygones, so has webpages without javascript and that is where your
disability argument doesn’t hold water.

And still the question is in the air, what is the argument for doing so?

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 4:31 PM, Kevin Turner
<kevin.turner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:

Interestingly, it seems we do indeed have some inadvertent benefits using
jQuery UI, because the widgets make use of ARIA by default

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/

http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/aria/aria.html

I expect some other well-known libraries do the same.

-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Maurice O'Prey
Sent: 29 January 2013 14:07
To: 'Web Enabling the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries)'
Subject: Re: [WEB400] DB Maintenance Design Patterns

Kevin

I concur with one of your observations. I did a demo many years ago to a
large company and when the issue of accessibility was raised the MD replied
that "he wasn't going to spend extra money making the site open to a one
armed blind man" (and yes he was sexist as well).

Things have changed a bit now I am glad to say and building accessibility
into your application isn't going to do you or your reputation any harm (it
may cost you but in the long run it is a sound investment because one day
the EU commission may clamp down hard (I wish they would) instead of
introducing daft cookie laws :-)

- Maurice

-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Kevin Turner
Sent: 29 January 2013 13:54
To: Web Enabling the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries)
Subject: Re: [WEB400] DB Maintenance Design Patterns

I can quite easily imagine the scenario, but that is not really my point.
I am talking Germany here, and they are very strict with us and the local
regulations (and have paid us for enhancements that make things comply with
German law).

Either:
1) They do not employ disabled people (not likely, but possible)
2) Their disabled people can still use the application, despite Javascript
being enabled
3) Their disabled people cannot use the application with Javascript enabled

My assumption is the answer is 2) - because if it was 3) they would be
down on us like a ton of bricks.

Now you are faced with the question - should you build the application in
a progressive way or not? Possibly you should, but then if it is a bespoke
application, would you do so at you own expense if the customer is not
interested in having it? One thing is for sure, the customer won't pay for
something they don't deem is necessary.

-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Maurice O'Prey
Sent: 29 January 2013 13:42
To: 'Web Enabling the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries)'
Subject: Re: [WEB400] DB Maintenance Design Patterns

Kevin

So imaging you are a person with a disability and you apply for a job.
You told you cannot have the job because you cannot use the DB
administration system.

True, some employers have a long way to go but just because it is an
Intranet application doesn't make it OK.

- Maurice

-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Kevin Turner
Sent: 29 January 2013 13:28
To: Web Enabling the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries)
Subject: Re: [WEB400] DB Maintenance Design Patterns

Ahh ok - I thought you meant that those libraries had built in progressive
features that we have not come across (rather than the ease with which you
can transform elements into widgets when it is enabled).

It is an interesting side topic - but I wonder how much effort we would
put into it given that we are not developing internet websites, but rather
intranet applications. I would have thought that our customers would have
complained long ago if we were developing things that their disabled
employees could not use.

-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Maurice O'Prey
Sent: 29 January 2013 13:20
To: 'Web Enabling the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries)'
Subject: Re: [WEB400] DB Maintenance Design Patterns

Kevin

As we use jQuery and jQueryUI extensively, I am still quite interested
in

your assertion that they are fine examples of how to develop your website.
It could be that we are not taking advantage of some compliant things we
could so it would be useful to know - but just how to you do that when
Javascript is turned off? jQuery and jQuery UI won't load and therefore
none of the features there-in work.<<

The approach is to build the site without JavaScript first then introduce
it progressively. Clearly JQuery does not load if JavaScript is turned off.
So your basic site has buttons and links to make it work as it would in the
good old days (when javaScript was the much hated language it isn't today).
Then if JavaScript is enabled (you don't even need to check) you remove
those and replace them with fancier widgets etc. by adding the new objects
to the DOM or manipulating CSS classes (piece of cake with jQuery)

Here is a perfect example on the human rights web site. With JavaScript
enabled the user can click the plus sign to expand the accordion and the
relevant content is displayed (this could even be grabbed from a page
further down using an Ajax call). If JavaScript disabled the page renders
the normal list of hyperlinks that where there in the first place (perfect).

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/advice-and-guidance/new-equality-act-guid
ance/equality-act-guidance-downloads/

I confess I am not perfect but I learn more about what the site needs to
do by trying to do it this way (rather than being left with the knowledge
that this ain't going to work for some people) and it does give a great
sense of satisfaction. In fact the site just "feels" more complete IMHO

Nice to know all visitors to your site can use it!

- Maurice O'Prey

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NOTICE: The information in this electronic mail transmission is intended
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otherwise confidential. If you have received this electronic mail
transmission in error, please delete it from your system without copying or
forwarding it, and notify the sender of the error by reply email or by
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CoralTree Systems Limited
25 Barnes Wallis Road
Segensworth East, Fareham
PO15 5TT

Company Registration Number 5021022.
Registered Office:
12-14 Carlton Place
Southampton, UK
SO15 2EA
VAT Registration Number 834 1020 74.
--
This is the Web Enabling the IBM i (AS/400 and iSeries) (WEB400) mailing
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To post a message email: WEB400@xxxxxxxxxxxx
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
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