Re: The Truth About EGL -- WEB400

Bob

When you move away from the RPG-based apps to embrace the technologies you
are espousing this statement will no longer be true.

When everything is platform independent (read running in PASE) the system i
will have been reduced to a more expensive unix machine with a different
label. It will need a dba, the web app guy, the HTML/page guys, the tape
jockey, a couple of egl guys etc etc. like every other platform out there.
That's the price of neutrality.

The current ROI savings come from the integration and like it or not, when
you move away from RPG and all the iSeries native frameworks you are going
to remove that.

Regards
Evan Harris

-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Bob Cancilla
Sent: Wednesday, 19 December 2007 7:48 a.m.
To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries
Subject: Re: [WEB400] The Truth About EGL

Aaron,

Something many people often overlook is the simple fact that regardless of
what language you use to develop in, the total cost of owning an i5 machine
is dramatically lower than alternatives. As a customer running between 4
and six i5 machines with a staff over 27 developers we had one person
devoting less than 1/3 of his time to i5 administration. Our Windows group
grew from 2 people to over 20 people. As AIX was introduced we ended up
with 4 people providing administrative support.

As I look out on the i5 community as an IBM'r with a much broader view point
I see customers who have ZERO dedicated administrators. The darn thing just
runs itself. Many i5 customers running 3rd party ISV based applications
have absolutely no technical support on site and rarely need assistance with
the machine. It just sits there and runs.

Not only is the TCO extremely low what other platform allows you to start
out with a model 515 and scale all the way up to a 595 with no changes in
your applications or environment or add new staff to support growth?

It is quite simply an awesome platform. Many of the reasons that people
give for moving to other languages are not technically oriented but are a
matter of satisfying themselves for numerous reasons that they are
protecting their company's investment in software.

On Dec 18, 2007 7:46 AM, Aaron Bartell <albartell@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Thanks for posting Bob. Based on your last comment:

<Bob>IBM's position is clear, we offer two very distinct paths to modern
Web
development: Java and EGL. The System i is computer platform that
supports
many other alternatives and those choices are also available to our
customers. We hope customers choose the IBM path...</Bob>

It appears as though there is awkward alignment between the software and
hardware divisions, because Java/EGL carry a mantra of platform
independence. What does System i hardware offer the shop that is looking
to
move on from RPG and lessen costs overall (i.e. moving to potentially more
effiecient development with EGL and moving their application stack to a
high
powered, less expensive, Wintel/Linux server).

Being that the applications are running in an OS agnostic app server
(WAS/Tomcat/Geronimo/etc), and being that those app servers don't
necessary
have any intimate connections to the OS/DB that would make it intriguing -
why would you envision people staying on System i5 hardware?

Maybe a better question to ask would be, how is the IBM software division
helping to sell *new* System i5 hardware to *new* customers? One thing I
could see as a benefit is the ability to have many LPARs that are
scaleable
past what an Enterprise Wintel machine can support.

Aaron Bartell
http://mowyourlawn.com

-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Bob Cancilla
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:25 AM
To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries
Subject: Re: [WEB400] The Truth About EGL

Trevor,

The facts are the facts. We have a significant population of RPG
developers
and customers have a huge inventory of RPG applications. RPG has a
healthy
future for at least 10 years. I cannot see beyond that point. It is also
a
fact that we are seeing a major decline in RPG programmers with the bulk
of
the population nearing retirement age and very few new young people
entering
the population. This is not my view point, look at Gartner and other
analysts. Can we turn this around? Should we turn this around? I can
assure you that IBM and I myself are committed to insuring that we protect
our customer's investment in RPG and that is a fact. We are taking some
specific steps to insure that we can provide that investment protection on
an ongoing basis. I will talk much more about this after our January
announcement when I am free to talk about our repackaging of System i
tools
and compilers.

Trevor I do not know the future of RPG. I see what I see in the market
which is a decline in the number of programmers and an increase in the
number of customers asking us to help them migrate to other technologies.
You can absolutely be assured that as long as customers continue to use
RPG
and want to use it, that we will support and enhance it.

As far as EGL goes, I think folks should begin to use it along with RPG,
not
in place of. I've looked carefully at the requests for an RPG based Web
UI
and feel that EGL meets the requirements that customers have set forth in
this area. There certainly was elegance and simplicity in one language
that
could do it all and that is also a fact. Unfortunately I do not see that
day coming back anytime soon. I think it is now a time where you must
pick
multiple tools to get the job done. EGL is one choice, it is the IBM
recommended strategic choice. There are most definitely alternative
solutions available today from other vendors and/or the open source
community.

Choices are based on our customers budgets, staffing constraints, and
demands of the business as well as the customer's tolerance of risk.
IBM's
position is clear, we offer two very distinct paths to modern Web
development: Java and EGL. The System i is computer platform that
supports
many other alternatives and those choices are also available to our
customers. We hope customers choose the IBM path...

On Dec 18, 2007 6:41 AM, Trevor Perry <trevor@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Bob,

This paragraph is the reason why people consider that you are saying RPG
is
dead. While you may not use the words, your intent is clear.

Out here in the real world, customers are not universally asking for
migration from RPG. There are many customers who wish to leverage their
investment in RPG and their staff, and would love to see you extend RPG
beyond a green screen language.

And, btw, thanks for your offlist reply to my question from this

weekend.

I
appreciate your consideration, and I appreciate you speaking for IBM.

Trevor