Re: Long time RPGer needs help getting started in newmethods

Joe,

Thanks for your input. As I mentioned in another post it was your post in a
thread in WDSCI-L that answered my first question about what is needed to
rund WDSCI. All I want now is some way to get iSeries Access for Web up and
running.

When I was hired, right out of university in 1981, I had never even heard of
RPG which was to be my main language. In university I went with the computer
science club to visit IBM Rochester (less than an hour from where I went to
school in Winona) they showed us the latest and greatest System/38 and it
meant nothing to me. My first job was a S/34 shop and I learned RPG through
a book course that our operater had taken. Later I took 2 weeks of courses
at an IBM "Guided Learning Center" so I could learn online programming. When
I started programming, almost everything was batch oriented and most data
entry was through diskette readers. We would batch the diskettes together
and run them through different procedures. We had 2 online programs -
Inventory Inquiry and AR Inquiry. They hired me to get the backlog down of
other things they wanted to move online.

At my current job, it is no problem selling the iSeries solution. My boss
bought an AS/400 in 1993 with a particular software package for the trucking
industry. The company who now owns that software also now has PC (or server)
based software also that is their mainstay. My boss will never leave the
current setup because the AS/400 has never gone down in 13 years! Our
servers crash on a regular basis (less regular since I have been here but
still isn't once enough?)

I totally agree with you as to not just getting a cookie cutter approach
where you don't learn anything. I want to know what I do. I have been to the
Core Decisions Roadshow where vendors were present to solve our "Web
Integration" needs. There are 2 problems with this: 1 -  my boss would never
buy it. 2 - I want to learn the technology myself and not just be dependent
on an expensive package.

I also agree that there is probably not a need for "yet another" web site. I
think David is doing a great job with this and there are plenty of others
that fill certain needs as well. Keeping out the trolls is a large job and I
like the way this site is done. In fact, it does such a good job that I have
never figured out how to post until today!! I have been watching and
subscribing to midrange.com for a long time and have tried post but it
wasn't until today that I figured out that I need my real email address
since David has filters that eliminate those that aren't subscribed. From my
old usenet posting days in the 90's I was still putting in my email address
as bhamren@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx or something like that.

Thanks,

Blair

(snip)
"Joe Pluta"  wrote in message

At the same time, nobody has a lot of time to learn new stuff.  I don't

know

how you learned RPG; I learned it by reading manuals late at night while
pulling reports off the back of a 1403 line printer.  Every language I
learned was learned the same way: on my own, reading books, looking at

other

people's code, and trying the stuff myself.  I know very few people who

were

"classically trained" in RPG.  That's part of the beauty of our community,

I

think: we're business programmers who use the language as a tool to solve
problems, not technologists looking for a problem to solve.  The vast
religious wars out there about languages and syntax and so on are

primarily

between technologists, not business programmers.

Okay, then... if you're a business programmer, what do you want?  You want
two things, I think.  One is just what you mentioned above, a way to show
decision makers why they should use the iSeries.  That's IBM's job,
actually, but since it's clear they have no interest in doing so then it's
up to us.  And that, I think, is the stated goal of places like iSociety:

to

raise the awareness of the platform in general.  But then more

specifically,

you need to be able to show YOUR clients or employers what the iSeries can
do for them.

And that's where learning new technologies comes into play.  I'm not going
to spend ANY time in this particular email comparing or contrasting the
various approaches.  I have very specific biases based on my experience

over

the years, but that's not the point.  The point is that we as a community
need a place to be able to get started.

You mentioned an ABCDEFGH approach.  I would argue that perhaps an A-B-C
approach with a little more depth is necessary; I have a little problem

with

giving somebody a complete black box technology that they don't understand
and then having that go into production.  Instead, I'm much more inclined

to

teach people enough so that they are past the initial learning curve and

can

then begin to learn on their own.

But even a simple A-B-C site is going to take work.  First, someone has to
research the technologies involved.  Then they have to get them to work.
Then they have to identify the various pitfalls.  Then they have to create

a

self-installing package, or conversely write a detailed, step-by-step
document for installing the software.  And then, inevitably, they'll have

to

put up with the people that can't install or run the stuff no matter how
easy it is.

That's an awful lot of work to ask someone to do for free.  Most of us in
the real world of midrange business programming have day jobs and adult
responsibilities.  Few of us can afford to simply sit down and write free
software (much less support it).

But, if there was a real need for such a site, and people were willing to
contribute, I suppose it could happen.  But that site would have to be
severely monitored to keep out the trolls, and to stay focused on the
specifics of the job at hand.  It would have to be very careful to avoid
ties to specific vendors or products and would have to be very mindful of
technologies that weaken rather than strengthen the iSeries (and who is

the

arbiter of that particular decision?).

It's a good idea, but I don't know how it could be done easily.  I've

tried

a couple of times over the years, and there are a LOT more people who want
to download a quick fix for their company than people who are willing to
write free software for others to use or even take the time to document

what

worked for them.

Joe

(/snip)