Joe,

I was only using PBD like I used DDS to help explain 
the value of a MVC framework. Struts could be dying 
even though the adoption rate says it isn't, and 
there will be better frameworks at some point but 
they aren't available today. 

When you say "Struts is dying and JSF/JSTL is the new 
kid in town" I have to wonder what you think provides 
the view for 99% of Struts applications? Using JSTL 
or JSP without Struts is similar to asp.net. It can 
be done, but not for enterprise level applications. I 
do not use specifications or products unless I  
believe they add true value. Servlets and JSP are 
without MVC is similar to RPGIV without service programs or display
files -- the first program goes 
quickly then you hit an error or realize that the 
script code you copied and used on the last 50 
pages is flawed.

I guess it boils down to this. I believe that iSeries 
developers are better off using Struts and tags than 
Servlets and scriptlets. My experience has been that 
Struts encourages developers to build applications 
that are better structured, less error prone, and 
easier to maintain than Servlet/scriptlet based 
applications. The main value comes from good 
architecture that encourages developing to interfaces 
and reuseable components. A side benefit is that 
development goes more quickly, testing is easier, 
and maintenance is not an afterthought. 

The vast majority of iSeries shops have applications 
running on more than one platform. Write once, run 
anywhere certainly doesn't hurt if it doesn't cost 
you anything. Hibernate allows you to write platform 
independent code, take it or leave it, and it won't 
cost you any more than platform specific code. My 
experience is that it takes less time. One side 
beneifit is that you can develop applications that 
ultimately target the iSeries against another 
database like MySql. I use this to write applications 
using MySql on my Laptop. The database moves 
itself from my laptop to the iSeries by switching configuration files.

Your argument for the iSeries is much stronger if you 
can build your applications so that they run on any 
platform and you can demonstrate that they run better 
on the iSeries. If you don't do this someone who 
does not understand the value of the iSeries may 
make this argument for you.

David Morris

>>> joepluta@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 10/09/03 6:37 PM >>>
> From: David Morris
> 
> We are talking about different things. Struts is MVC. JSP, JSTL,
> JSF, etc. are just the V. If you don't use something like Struts,
> you will never be able to switch the view. I bet your PBD tool
> does not work with program defined display files. For the same
> reasons, you are better off using Struts and JSTL tags over
> scriptlets or pure HTML.

What do you mean by "switching the view"?  Really, I'm not saying
anything more than the fact that Struts is dying and JSF/JSTL is the new
kid in town, and that if you sit on the bleeding edge, that sort of
thing is going to happen.

You seem dead-set on talking about PBD.  I am talking about web
application development in general.  It's my contention that pure JSP
Model II is all you need - Struts is simply extra overhead.  What PBD
does is not an issue.  PBD is a code generator - it can generate Struts
code just as easily as JSP Model II.  It's just that I like to keep
things simple.


> I can't afford to stop development and wait for JSF.

Ah, here's my point... I don't HAVE to wait for JSF!  Because I don't
need it!  I'm still trying to figure out what you gain from Struts other
than a different syntax.


> My ideal framework would implement MVC as a services
> interface over a platform independent database layer (like
> Hibernate provides).

Whatever you like, David.  I don't need an "independent database layer".
I'm not looking to move my customers off the iSeries.  So I like RPG and
JSP Model II.  Fast and blindingly simple.  No compatibility issues, and
code I wrote three years ago still works today.  The trick is to code
the logic in your servlets and beans, not in your UI.


> If you are set on using scriptlets, you might look at:
> http://www.day.com/en/product/productline/unify/ide/dnlogin.html
> I don't know if it is any good but I do know that debugging scriptlets
> is a huge pain.

I guess it depends on your tools.  In WDSC setting a breakpoint in a
scriptlet is as simple as double-clicking on the line.

Anyway, you have your own development methodology, and I'm not saying
it's wrong.  I'm just saying it's not the same as mine, and mine is just
as valid as yours.  From a standpoint of stability over the long term,
I'd say mine is better.  For writing lots of code quickly, I'd say yours
is better.  It just depends on your goals.

Joe


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