Re: Software fixes for older releases

Programmer: SEU is depreciated and hasn't had any updates since 6.1.
Everytime I use new feature from 7.1+ SEU highlights it as an error.

Kevin Bucknum
Senior Programmer Analyst
MEDDATA/MEDTRON
Tel: 985-893-2550

-----Original Message-----

From: WDSCI-L [mailto:wdsci-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
mlazarus
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 7:00 PM
To: Rational Developer for IBM i / Websphere Development Studio Client
forSystem i & iSeries
Subject: Re: [WDSCI-L] Software fixes for older releases

Jim,

If you do the math, IBM is actually coming out ahead, not taking

anything on

the chin. Right now they are losing quite a bit due to the cost

factor.

Manager: We're ordering a new system. We need to keep the costs down.
Tell me what products are absolutely necessary.

Programmer: The compilers, PDM, and, uh, RDi.

Manager: I'm OK with the compilers and PDM, but do you really *NEED*

RDi?

Haven't you been using SEU for many years and been very productive?

Programmer: Well sure, but I will be more productive with RDi!

Manager: Let's see, we have 5 seats to buy @ $913.00 per seat =

$4565.00

(source:
https://www.ibm.com/us-en/marketplace/rational-developer-for-
i/purchase), plus maintenance. You know what, let's wait and see if

you

REALLY need it.


To address your statement: "No other vendor bundles the IDE in with

the

system, you have to order and pay for it." So are you advocating

paying extra

for DB2 or any other service that's currently included that isn't on

other

platforms?? All I'm suggesting is that this is a development tool

that should

be included when purchasing the native development tools. A small

bump in

the WDS price for everyone should more than cover the cost.

-mark


On 1/31/2018 3:03 PM, Jim Oberholtzer wrote:

May assumption was you were adding $100 to the price of the

compiler.

You can order RDi two ways. If you order it as an LPP then it would
get buried as you suggest in the total cost of the system. But too
many managers look for large numbers in the config and blast them

out.

Or you can order from Software Advantage. Then the delivery

mechanisms

change.

If you have a business partner worth a salt, they can order either
way, but believe me they will need to be told to order it in the

first

place. Most partners are working to keep the cost of acquisition

down

as low as possible to keep pace with the Intel crowd. If you start
incrementally adding cost to the acquisition, then IBM i loses

parity

with the other solutions and loses again.

Bottom line: No other vendor bundles the IDE in with the system,

you

have to order and pay for it. Why should IBM take it in the chin

when

the competition doesn't?


--
Jim Oberholtzer
Agile Technology Architects


-----Original Message-----
From: WDSCI-L [mailto:wdsci-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
mlazarus
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 1:37 PM
To: Rational Developer for IBM i / Websphere Development Studio

Client

for System i& iSeries<wdsci-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [WDSCI-L] Software fixes for older releases

Jim,

Why do you say that? I have no way of veryfying the actual
numbers, but let's take a stab at it. If there are 50+ boxes with a
WDS license for every RDi license, IBM would actually be way ahead

of the

game!

Asuuming a $100 increase per WDS license, that would more than cover
the "seat" price differential for RDi. I suspect that the number of
WDS licenses vs. RDi is even higher.

-mark

On 1/31/2018 1:48 PM, Jim Oberholtzer wrote:

What you are suggesting would take about $800/seat revenue out of
IBMs hands.

Also due to the changes (way back) in IBM's accounting that makes

it

much harder to assign sales.

Let me take another tack: Have you advocated that Microsoft give a
full copy of Studio away (or add $100) for every user license on

the

Server platform? Do you think they would consider that? I know

the

answer, hell no. So why should IBM do that?


--
Jim Oberholtzer
Agile Technology Architects


-----Original Message-----
From: WDSCI-L [mailto:wdsci-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
mlazarus
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 12:35 PM
To: Rational Developer for IBM i / Websphere Development Studio

Client

for System i& iSeries<wdsci-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [WDSCI-L] Software fixes for older releases

Hi Jim,

The main argument being put forth is a very old argument and
doesn't apply anymore. Let's look at the situation then and now.

Then:
- PC's were underpowered at that time for the product to work well.
- Midrange shops tend to be conservative about trying new software
products until they are tried and true and have gained traction in
the

community.

- Few midrange programmers were familiar with graphical IDE's.

Now:
- PC's have come a long way. No problem with CPU power or RAM
running

RDi.

- RDi has been tested in the field. and the features are far better
than
CODE/400 was.
- Many more programmers are familiar with graphical IDE's or at the
very least are will to try RDi.

When I refer to "bundling" it, IBM does not have to take a

revenue hit.

If the price for WDS were to be raised very slightly for all when
purchasing the box, the powers that be would not blink to shell out
the extra $100 or so. For the programming staff to request it

later,

or if it's a separate line item, it will often encounter

resistance.

This opinion reflects my experience in several shops over quite

a

few years.

-mark

On 1/31/2018 8:54 AM, Jim Oberholtzer wrote:

That was the argument for WSCDi back in the day. Bundle it and

they

will use it. Very few of us did. Now that RDi has its own

revenue

stream, development on the product has increased exponentially and
along with it, usage.

RDi has a model that is roughly based on the system with

concurrent

user pricing if you purchase the correct license. If that works

for

you go for it. It does not work for most shops.

My main thing is system programming so I remain in CL 90% of the
time with the balance being in SQL (and I do it badly I might

add).

Most of my RPG is from code published in articles (thanks Scott

and

Carsten!) so I don't do much there. I started using Code/400 and
it's

successors a long time ago.

I still use RDi (and pay for it) because even for the little bit
(comparatively to all of you) that I do, it's far more productive
than

SEU.

In the end it's about revenue to IBM. In order for the product to

survive,

it needs money. I don't disagree with the Lite version, but

earlier

comments have hit the nail on the head. If 80% of what I use is

in

the Lite version, why buy the full version? I'll just find

another

way to do the 20% I don't get. That equals significant revenue

loss

for IBM and a reduction in the development pace. Now that IBM
outsourced the development to Help Systems I wait to find out how
that

will work, and what happens to pricing.

I'm not optimistic.


--
Jim Oberholtzer
Agile Technology Architects


-----Original Message-----
From: WDSCI-L [mailto:wdsci-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
mlazarus
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 9:07 PM
To: Rational Developer for IBM i / Websphere Development Studio

Client

for System i& iSeries<wdsci-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [WDSCI-L] Software fixes for older releases

Jim,

That's why I mentioned bundling it with the development

tools.

That's licensed to the system, not by user. The number of

installs

(probably the vast majority of systems sold) would more than pay

for

RDi development and support.

-mark

On 1/30/2018 12:45 PM, Jim Oberholtzer wrote:

Mark,

I understand the sentiment, however that ship sailed a long time

ago.

Each of the IBM products has to stand on its own financially now,
so bundling the RDi into the complier would not fit the new
economic model. I would not look for IBM to move that direction

ever

again.

Furthermore assuming P level tiered pricing, the P10 compiler
(most of the machines out there) is user based now, so let's say
IBM does bundle the RDi in with the compiler. Many of you (maybe
most) have a compiler license for
3 to 5 compilers, meaning concurrent compile operations. RDi

would

bump the cost way too high since now you have to buy a compiler
license

for each

developer, instead of all of them sharing a small number of them.

Even

if IBM splits the difference with you and charges $500 for the

RDi

and then the extra cost of the compiler (ILE btw, the OPM

compiler

would be much
more) would become very prohibitive.

Remember IBM does not make much money on the hardware. It's

now

all the software where the revenue is.

--
Jim Oberholtzer
Agile Technology Architects


-----Original Message-----
From: WDSCI-L [mailto:wdsci-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
mlazarus
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 11:14 AM
To: Rational Developer for IBM i / Websphere Development Studio

Client

for System i& iSeries<wdsci-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [WDSCI-L] Software fixes for older releases

Jim, Brian,

I would much rather that IBM nominally bumps the compiler

or

WDS bundle price (maybe by $100?) for everyone and includes RDi

as

part of either of those (most likely it would be WDS).

-mark

On 1/30/2018 9:43 AM, Jim Oberholtzer wrote:

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment:

There are at least two great open source editors out there.

Orion

which is free (5733-OPS) and Liam Allan has published his

version

called

ILEditor.

See: http://worksofbarry.com/ileditor

So now the question: Do you want IBM spending time/money on a
lite version of RDi, taking away resources from the full RDi
product, or would you like them to concentrate solely on the

full

RDi product and allow the open source community to develop your

lite versions?

I vote open source.

--
Jim Oberholtzer
Agile Technology Architects


-----Original Message-----
From: WDSCI-L [mailto:wdsci-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Brian Parkins
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 7:54 AM
To: Rational Developer for IBM i / Websphere Development Studio

Client

for System i& iSeries<wdsci-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [WDSCI-L] Software fixes for older releases

There is an request (RFE) for an RDi-Lite version which would

be

free or at least much cheaper. It's status is currently "Under
Consideration." So at least IBM is thinking about it.

You can add your vote at:

http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/rfe/execute?use_case=viewRfe&CR

_
I
D
=
1
08558

developerWorks requires an IBM ID for which registration is

free.

Michael Quigley
Computer Services
The Way International

Thx for highlighting this RFE - it has my vote!

Brian.

--
This is the Rational Developer for IBM i / Websphere Development

Studio

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