Re: Web Services Solutions

From: richard@xxxxxxxxxxx

I agree.  I love working Joe into a froth :-)

Oh Richard, you give yourself WAY too much credit <smile>.  I'm hardly
frothing.  If your best answer is VB bytecode, then I've got nothing to
worry about.

Joe gets worked up when I talk about converting VB into Java bytecode.
Point of fact is that's only 5% of what we use Visual Studio for but it's
a great way to leverage existing Visual Studio VB or C# code to run
natively on the iSeries.

I don't get worked up about anything, but I find your passion for this goofy
"cross-platform .NET" silliness to be very amusing.  It's as bizarre an
architecture as I can imagine (how many competing components are YOU going
to rely on in your system?).

Here's another example where the VB to Java bytecode scenario can work
well: We used Visual Studio and VB to recently create a Websphere Portlet
for our WebDocs product.  Talk about cross-platform code re-use.  We
re-used 99.5% of existing .Net code and it runs natively on iSeries or
Windows or Linux.

I can't think of anything sillier.  How exactly do you debug the generated
bytecode when it is running on the iSeries?  Or on Linux?

<OMNI user group plug>
For the record my .Net class at OMNI will have nothing to do with VB to
Java bytecode. We're teaching VB.Net and ASP.Net for iSeries developers
:-)

My class is geared to help those of us who are "tried and true" RPG
developers get a jump start to learning Visual Studio.  If you're
interested in Visual Studio, don't be intimidated by Joe's viewpoint.  The
"real-world" does use .Net with the iSeries to bring continuing value to
the platform.

Another mis-representation.  You are truly becoming one with the Dark Side,
Richard <grin>.  My "viewpoint" was clearly that .NET is a great environment
for developing Windows client applications, and a fearsomely bad one for
developing server-side iSeries applications.

You will be teaching the former, which is why I like it!  You may not know
this, but I lobbied very hard FOR your .NET lab, you big lummox.

And guess what, they use it in conjunction with RPG programs.  Very cool
!!

Whether you come to see me or Joe, make sure to show up at the Omni User
Conference on Feb 26th/27th  http://www.omniuser.org
</OMNI user group plug>

Agreed.

I see many more people dumping the iSeries for .Net applications rather
than Java applications.  Whether Joe agrees or not, that is the reality my
software team deals with every day.

While this is the sad truth, there's little that's going to stop this.  My
biggest problem is that people I considered respected members of the iSeries
community are working with offshore firms to dump established iSeries
applications in favor of outsourced .NET solutions.

This often starts by opening up the iSeries database to SQL Server and VB
front ends, which in turn leads down the slippery slope of turning the
iSeries into a database server with no business logic on the box.  At that
point, 90-day bottom liners can't be convinced of the TCO of the iSeries,
and you end up with companies dumping the machine.

Of course, the vast majority of those implementations end up with more
expensive systems requiring more support staff and having less features and
less uptime.  But nobody says anything about that, because the consultants
are long gone cashing their paychecks and management can't possibly admit
that they made the wrong decision.

My .Net message: Learn the importance of using a tool like .Net to
leverage the iSeries as a powerful database server for native iSeries apps
and for the Windows and Web applications the younger generation wants to
see.  Unfortunately in corporate America sex sells and when it comes to
Sex, MS Wins hands down and the 30-something CFO always goes for the
option that looks the best.  In my experience it's not too often the Java
option :-)

This is where we really differ.  Except for the world of thick clients, J2EE
applications with RPG back ends are faster, more powerful, and more feature
rich than SQL-based .NET applications.  The only way .NET stuff can even
compete is if you convert it to bytecode that directly calls RPG business
logic, and that's just the silliest thing in the world.

Don't get me wrong, MS is great for thick client stuff.  Of course, thick
client is pretty ancient technology.  I'm not sure how much thick-client
work is actually being done any more, but the vast majority of my clients
are looking for browser based applications, and that's purely the domain of
J2EE.

Rich client is probably the wave of the future, and I don't think anybody's
got any sort of stranglehold on that particular niche yet.

Being fluent in several technologies allows my team to always be able to
select the best tool and language for any given task.

Yeah, okay.  But then again, that means anybody who implements your stuff
needs to be fluent in all those technologies as well, and also must rely on
all the third-party tools you've downloaded off the Internet.  There is a
certain joy in the KISS principle: RPG with a thin browser front end sure
keeps it simple, and all the software is supported by IBM.

RPG, VB, C# and Java are ALL far from the "horse and buggy" approach that
Joe jokes about.

VB is a joke for production applications.  C# is supposedly a good language
for thick client development, but I don't see it.  RPG and whatever you
choose for a thin browser-based UI are the right tools for the vast majority
of iSeries-based applications.  WDSC is the environment that allows you to
use those tools to the best ability.

Again, you can't even debug RPG in Visual Studio.

Don't be intimidated or dissuaded from using .Net technologies based on
comments from Joe against Microsoft products.

My comments are only to use the right tool for the right job, and BASIC
ain't the right tool for ERP applications.  And I'm honestly not sure what
job C# is right for, but it's not writing MRP generations.

I would love to do a real side-by-side class where we teach a beginning
class for Java developers and let's say C# to keep it closer to Java for
Joe's sake.  At the end of the class let's see who can be more productive.
 I would take the Microsoft Visual Studio bet any day given real world
experience with both sets of tools.

And this is the silliest part of the whole argument.  I don't recommend Java
for application development - never have (that's why the Java guys hate me
as much as the Microsofties).  The thin layer of Java that I need to create
a browser-based interface can be taught to an RPG programmer in a day. I in
fact do that on a regular basis.  And with EGL, that skill set can be
reduced even further, to where you really don't do much more than define
data structures and paint them on JSP pages using the WYSIWYG editor in
WDSC.

I can then create a UI inside of WDSC that I can debug from one end to the
other, including the host-side RPG code, without leaving the tool, and then
deploy to multiple environments from WebSphere on the iSeries to Tomcat on
Windows, all without using any third party tools or techniques.

THAT'S what you can't do in your alchemist's brew of technologies.  By the
time you get stuff running on WebSphere, you're no longer really using
Visual Studio anymore.  And THAT'S the bag on the horse's butt...

Joe