I cannot see how the amount of work (and size of team) required for testing
an application is in any way connected to the programming language it has
been developed in RPG, VB.NET, C# whatever?.
In my experience the amount of testing (above programmer and end user
testing) has always had a direct correlation with the size of development
budget (and the amount of 'new' an 'untried' code contained in the
application). Hence I advocate a product based approach to any development
(never a one off where possible).
Who cares which language?
Maurice O'Prey
-----Original Message-----
From: systemidotnet-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:systemidotnet-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matt Olson
Sent: 20 December 2012 21:28
To: '.net use with the System i'
Subject: Re: [SystemiDotNet] What are you doing with.NET and integrating
into IBM i?
You must have a pretty small team of developers I take it to not require
regression testing? Yes unit tests take time to write, but how else have
you done regression testing? Hire a team of testers with hand written
testing scripts by their side? Or just say to heck with testing altogether?
-----Original Message-----
From: Walden H. Leverich [mailto:WaldenL@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:20 PM
To: .net use with the System i
Subject: Re: [SystemiDotNet] What are you doing with.NET and integrating
into IBM i?
I would probably add on the test-script front that I've yet to find a
testing solution that's of any value. Unit testing w/mocks is the stupidest
thing I've heard of. I'd end up writing 5 times as much "test" code as
production code. And you know what, unless I'm a complete idiot I'm going to
know that the code I just wrote doesn't work as soon as I exercise it.
Sure the concept is great, have a big library of automated tests that cover
all the system so you have the freedom to make changes and just hit a button
to make sure you didn't break anything or introduce regressions. But when I
look at the bugs we've had over the years they're all related to UI/browser
issues or other corner cases and not anything that would have been picked up
with a unit-test tool.
Please, someone tell me different. Seriously... I'd love to find that tool
that gets me that idea concept, but I've just not found it.
-Walden
--
Walden H Leverich III
Tech Software &
BEC - IRBManager
(516) 627-3800 x3051
WaldenL@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.TechSoftInc.com
http://www.IRBManager.com
Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur.
(Whatever is said in Latin seems profound.)
-----Original Message-----
From: systemidotnet-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:systemidotnet-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David Sager
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:15 PM
To: .net use with the System i
Cc: systemidotnet-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [SystemiDotNet] What are you doing with.NET and integrating
into IBM i?
And I would suspect that you most likely would not find an off-the-shelf
test for VB code. Would it be easier to generate one in VB? I would think
that would depend on the complexity of what needed to be tested.
The point I was trying to make with test scripts (and evidently failed
miserably) is that vendors just were not interested in creating test scripts
for RPG. By the time these kinds of tools became practical
(marketable) most of the RPG world already had developed what they needed,
and/or had the expertise in house to know what / how to test.
As Walden points out, we shouldn't be necessarily dumping one software
development tool / language for another one. I think VB is a wonderful
language - it's just a pity it cannot run natively on an i. ^-^
From: "Bryce Martin" <bmartin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: ".net use with the System i" <systemidotnet@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Date: 12/20/2012 02:53 PM
Subject: Re: [SystemiDotNet] What are you doing with.NET and
integrating into IBM i?
Sent by: systemidotnet-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
At a previous job I wrote some very complex scheduling engine logic that I
had to write tests for. But my tests were written in another rpg program
that would log success or failures against a known set of inputs/outputs
(duh, a unit test). If I didn't do this it was incredibly hard to make sure
all the cases were always intact when I made a change or added a new
scenario. All in RPGLE with recursive procedures that traversed BOMs and
used timeframes and all kinds of fun stuff...
Thank You
Bryce Martin
National Ticket Company
570-672-2900 ext. 226
-----Original Message-----
From: systemidotnet-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:systemidotnet-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David Sager
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 2:22 PM
To: .net use with the System i
Subject: Re: [SystemiDotNet] What are you doing with.NET and integrating
into IBM i?
Matt, I can answer a couple of those...
1. Database interoperability. I am pretty sure Scott Klement's stuff for
accessing other databases suffices. I know we use the JDBC version to
access Oracle databases on a regular basis. The only snag we ran into was
with DNS servers - evidently it tries all of them you list rather than
stopping after the first hit. We had our back-up DNS server defined, not
realizing our network guys would take it down without notification. Response
times ground to a halt while the JVM had to go through its timeout logic.
2. Again, it's all how your web services are defined. If you set up a
procedure to handle it, then a single line of code in your application
should be all that's required.
3. Indicators are both a boon and a bane. We still use indicators here to
interact with our display files, and I have a couple of what I would
consider *state of the art* applications that use all of them (to handle
presenting the appropriate fields on a build-your-own search). Yes, having
display attributes as methods and properties would be great, but then again
I've heard you can imitate them with display files. We've just never taken
the time.
4. Cyclomatic complexity? You can write garbage code in any language.
5. Testing frameworks? We don't need no stinking testing frameworks!
Quite frankly, the level of complexity you can get with VB code far exceeds
anything I've ever seen in RPG. The only thing I can remember that's come
close are the old IBM MAPICS programs that would use a variety of *unique*
processes to get the job done. But then again, most of those were designed
to run on multi-user systems that had a whopping 64KB of memory (those were
also the days that you were severely chastised for writing any program that
compiled into more than 14KB).
- Dave Sager
Solus Christus
On Dec 20, 2012, at 1:03 PM, "Matt Olson" <Matt.Olson@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
Awesome, we can get rid of that program maybe. I guess some better
examples would have been in order:
1. database interoperability. Without unsupported addons such as
ARDGATE how to read/write from external databases?
2. Interact with web services with one line of code?
Webserver.AddTwoNumbers(x,y)?
3. Indicator hell, we have some programs that use all 99 indicators.
Code spaghetti! Obviously this is just a bad coding issue.
4. Built in code metrics (cyclomatic complexity, etc) 5. Unit
testing! We have a wealth of unit testing frameworks, where are the
dozens for RPG?
Etc...
-----Original Message-----
From: whatt sson [mailto:whattssonn@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 7:39 AM
To: .net use with the System i
Subject: Re: [SystemiDotNet] What are you doing with .NET and
integrating into IBM i?
I remember a discussion about leap years, we have this really old
RPG
program
that had to calculate leap year logic, and I showed them the one
line of
code in
.NET to do the same thing.
I can do that also in one line with RPG :
if IsLeapYear(y) . . .
or even translate a gregorian date to a week date like this:
wdt = Gdt2Wdt(date);
in ONE line !!
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 9:54 PM, Matt Olson <Matt.Olson@xxxxxxxx>
wrote:
We are doing a lot things with .NET nowadays. You look at the
program difference in reduction of lines of code, testability,
readability between a .NET program and an RPG program that does the
same thing and it makes the RPG guys cry.
So with that being said, we generally don't talk about it anymore,
RPGers get upset. I remember a discussion about leap years, we have
this really old RPG program that had to calculate leap year logic,
and I showed them the one line of code in .NET to do the same thing.
There are so many examples like this it isn't even fair to compare
.NET to RPG, hands down .NET will win every time.
That's just the nature of technology. Things progress.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Wills [mailto:mike@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 2:41 PM
To: .net use with the System i
Subject: Re: [SystemiDotNet] What are you doing with .NET and
integrating into IBM i?
I was trying to pull out issues people are having. Maybe it's so
perfect that there are no problems. ;-)
--
Mike Wills
http://mikewills.me
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Maurice O'Prey
<Maurice.Oprey@xxxxxxxxx
wrote:
Well Mike
That was certainly a pot boiler! Haven't read such a debate in a
very, very, long, long, time :-)
Why don't we just mention .NET over in ("the other list"). Always
attracts attention... IMHO
- Maurice O'Prey
-----Original Message-----
From: systemidotnet-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:systemidotnet-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike
Wills
Sent: 18 December 2012 16:25
To: systemidotnet@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SystemiDotNet] What are you doing with .NET and
integrating into IBM i?
Since this list isn't very busy lets get a conversation going!
What are you using .NET for?
--
Mike Wills
http://mikewills.me
--
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