RE: Future of RPG was: Open Access for RPG -- RPG400-L

John,

moving programmers from companies into servicecenters - would it make them
any better ?

Henrik

john e <jacobus1968@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent by: rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
29-07-2010 17:36
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RPG programming on the IBM i / System i <rpg400-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>

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RPG programming on the AS400 / iSeries <rpg400-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
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Subject
RE: Future of RPG was: Open Access for RPG

You said "learn from history don't repeat it." But, whatever you want to

call cloud computing, it's still just buying time on someone else's
machine. Looking back in history, it's been done, should we repeat it?

Nokia was the king of mobile telephony, look where it's heading
now.Virtual Machines is also nothing new, had that in the 60's.In fact,
there is no single technology or tool we didn't had 20/30 years ago.The
only thing i can think about is STM (software transactional memory).
It's not about technology and tools.It's about economy.It's now practical,
and the infrastructure is there (the web), to really leverage the concept
of Saas.The infrastructure and tools needed for this are abundant.I
remember paying 150 dollars for Turbo Pascal in the 80's (and it still
beats RDi but i digress).
Nowadays you can download Eclipse for free.It's simply amazing what
powerful IDE Eclipse is, and it's free (like Netbeans btw).
Just saying, history repeats, but not exactly the same, there is
progress.Like going from mainframes to mini to PC's to laptops to phone's
to.... Eventually all computing infrastructure will "disappear", i.e.
intergrated into our everyday things.But what not disappears is software,
and the creation of it.The software market will "explode" (see iPhone).

To: rpg400-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Future of RPG was: Open Access for RPG
From: BRoche@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 08:17:55 -0500

But "cloud computing" or "utility computing" or "software as a service",

are all the same thing. This was done in the past. Companies couldn't
afford computers and bought time on them. then things got the to point

could control our own data. I agree that a percentage of the market will

go to Some server farm owned by someone else, But with the security
problems, and rules governing how data must be controlled. Some

companies

are still going to find it easier (safer) to keep that control

themselves.

They already have the infrastructure so why throw it away and trust
someone else with your companies private information.

You said "learn from history don't repeat it." But, whatever you want to

call cloud computing, it's still just buying time on someone else's
machine. Looking back in history, it's been done, should we repeat it?

From:
john e <jacobus1968@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To:
RPG programming on the AS400 / iSeries <rpg400-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date:
07/29/2010 05:05 AM
Subject:
RE: Future of RPG was: Open Access for RPG
Sent by:
<rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx>

Have you ever been in a SAP installation serving 5000> users in 60

countries ?> > Do you really belive that they would ever buy their> core

applications on amazone.com ?
I don't know, maybe not Amazon.com, but Google, or VMWare, or ....
You know what they said in '80 about PC's being "toys"....
I'ts inevitable, and it makes perfect economic sense.If you know history

you know it's going to happen, faster than you expect.
Learn from history, don't repeat it.
It's a matter of trust.

To: rpg400-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Future of RPG was: Open Access for RPG
From: hr@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:44:52 +0200

Have you ever been in a SAP installation serving 5000
users in 60 countries ?

Do you really belive that they would ever buy their
core applications on amazone.com ?

Henrik

john e <jacobus1968@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent by: rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
29-07-2010 11:20
Please respond to
RPG programming on the IBM i / System i <rpg400-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>

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RPG programming on the AS400 / iSeries <rpg400-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
cc

Subject
RE: Future of RPG was: Open Access for RPG

You're right, but thats not what i meant.
Existing "i" software will not move to the cloud, in ten years.It will

not

go anywhere, unless a company is forced.
What i meant to say is that in ten years (or meaybe even sooner) every

"on-premise" platfrom is legacy.
And thinking that "i" has some future in "the cloud" is simply

whishful

thinking, and one should learn from past mistakes and learn/invest in
technologies. Trying to influence where the "i" software market goes

like trying to push an oil tanker into a specific direction with your
finger.
And i don't mean RPG-OA of course.
Platforms, infrastructure, etc, is "out", and thats a good thing (if
you're a software developer).

From: Mihael.Schmidt@xxxxxxxxxxx
To: rpg400-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Future of RPG was: Open Access for RPG
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 08:47:58 +0000

I think you are probably on the right way concerning our future

infrastructure but I don't think that this will happen in the next 10
years. From a technological viewpoint it may happen but companies are
moving too slow for this. They are not adapting so fast.

-----Original Message-----
From: rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx

[mailto:rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of john e

Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 10:30 AM
To: RPG programming on the AS400 / iSeries
Subject: RE: Future of RPG was: Open Access for RPG

I am hopeful that IBM will recognize the incredible opportunity

they

have right now to capitalize on "IBM i in the cloud"

I don't want to spoil your party, but do you really think that

something

like this is going to happen???

First, what is the business proposition of IBM i "in the cloud"? I

don't

know.I do know (well ok not really) that "cloud" is the future, it

makes

economic sense and it will make an end to all this "enterprise".

Software

development should not be done by companies themselves, they are no SD

organisations, put production organisation. This is the root of all
problems, i.e. the abysmal state of software development. Moving to

the

cloud means that specialized companies build (custom) software. These
companies have professional software developers who know and are
interested in, software development. The may reason why RPG'ers are so

"lazy" (they aren't i know) is that99% are *not* software developers.

They

merely entered the field by accident. The "good" developers i know all

have a real interest in software development and where already

programming

in e.g. Basic before they went into the field. MOst RPG'ers dont have

this

background. They never really choose to go in this fie!
ld!

. And you really do have to have this "drive" to be good at it,

reading

books, magazines etc out of sheer enthousiasm and interest. You don't

get

to learn software development by doing an RPG/COBOL course, or Scrum

whatever. You don't get to read a book like the Mythical Man-Month

e.g.

But this is real knowledge, not "tooling".

So, the "business proposition" if the "i" has always been that you

simply put it there in a corner and it does it's work, without a lot

maintenance etc. If everthing moves to the cloud and "on-premise"
computing is only economically feasible for the biggest companies like

banks etc what advantage does the "i" have in the cloud?? I don't

know.

A

"cloud" company like Amazon has lots of trained staff for their
infrastructure. There is no place for "i", it's by definition an
"on-premise" platform. This will be only interesting for companies

that

want to move their existing "i" applications to the cloud. And i don't

see

that happening very soon.

The next ten years "the cloud" (sorry for the marketing hype but i'm

certain this is going to be a profound shift) will transfrom IT
completely. That means that *all" on-premise platforms, be it IBM "i",

Windows, Unix, can *all* be considered legacy.

Like i said, don't want to spoil youor party, but there is no future

in

"i".

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 10:18:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Future of RPG was: Open Access for RPG
From: aaronbartell@xxxxxxxxx
To: rpg400-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx

Been following this thread with interest. I wouldn't be opposed

a

new name, but agree that the perception is more what needs to be
changed. A new name might be in order if they did some crazy
significant things with the language/syntax - like 100% free-form

and

break away from ALL "legacy" features so the language can be moved
forward faster. Obviously the things on the "legacy features

list"

would be debatable, but I would put on that list things like
indicators, fixed form specs, etc.

At the end of the day I don't see a lot of use in trying to

convince

somebody over 50 that they should learn something new unless they

have

already stated interest in moving forward - I gave up on that crew

few years ago. INSTEAD I think we need to focus on how to convey

the

platform to the next generation. A month or so ago I posted to
WEB400-L about doing a tutorial named "RPG for PHP programmers"

that

would essentially train an existing PHP minded person to do
RPG+CGI+DB2+IBMi with the basics and get them producing

applications

in a weeks time. Teaching a PHP programmer concepts of ILE

modularity

is already within their nature, and with embedded SQL I think they
would take to it like a fish to water. Of course such training

would

also declare the common "gotchas" that we have on our system that
might not be immediately apparent to a new personality.

ALL of this is moot if people can't get access to a machine. If
www.iDevCloud.com or equivalent doesn't pan out in right ways then

would say all other efforts we work on are relatively moot. I am
hopeful that IBM will recognize the incredible opportunity they

have

right now to capitalize on "IBM i in the cloud" and provide means

providing free access to slivers of a cloud IBM i machine for

people

to cut their teeth on. I am not holding my breath and instead

think

it will have to happen on the backs (and the pocket books) of the
community.

Aaron Bartell
http://mowyourlawn.com
http://mowyourlawn.com/blog/
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