RE: Please vote for Syntax check in /FREE! -- RPG400-L

<Quite a few questions, and reply is long, so if you're not interested, then
just skip it.>

| -----Original Message-----
| [mailto:rpg400-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Bartell, Aaron L.
| (TC)


| <jt>
| I
| didn't get very far in college, but I got far enough to understand the
| concept of how a *statistically random* sample can allow a small sample to
| accurately measure the whole.  (You do NOT have a statistically random
| sample with these polls, btw.)
| </jt>
|
| Most programmers that are concerned about where a language is going get
| involved in a community like this.  I could ask my little brother what he
| thinks of RPG, but he only took it for one semester in college.

That is certainly what you would LIKE to believe, isn't it, Aaron.

I could ask quite a few working RPG programmers their opinion, and some
would agree and most would differ.  In fact.. I have, over the years.  I've
talked to programmers of different languages, and different skill-sets,
day-in and day-out for a long time.  Not in order to take a poll, but to
learn.  (When I say I talked, I rarely said much-a anything.)

I've actually talked with Joe and Rob Dixon once, Leif a couple or three
times, and talked many times with another (local) person I think is
undisputably among THE best in the world, bar none.  Emailed with quite a
few, some of whom (I would consider) world-class and some who weren't, over
the past couple or three years.

|
| <jt>
| You think procedure overloading is anywhere even CLOSE to a necessity in
| **business application** design??   If you took a poll of ALL the
| RPG coders
| (and I mean every last stinking one of us, not the people who
| frequent these
| lists) then making RPG more object-orientated would be SO far behind
| improving SEU that it wouldn't EVEN show UP as a choice on the poll!!!
| </jt>
|
| Hmmm. . . Have you actually tried some of the easy to use features of
| OO/Modular programming in other languages?

Some, but not as much as I would like.  My employer doesn't pay for me to
play around, because I'm a contractor.

| They are very nice and yes RPG
| could definitely benefit from them.

On the contrary, you don't know what you're talking about, Aaron.
Especially when you state "could definitely benefit".  Care to provide some
examples...??  (Until there are some examples, the "definitely" is NOT
definite, and the emphasis should be on "could" as in "mebbe".)

The industry is not necessarily gonna buy into OO, nor J2EE, unless it comes
built into packages like Websphere, is my opinion.  It hasn't bought into it
so far, in case you haven't noticed, Aaron.  SOME have, and MOST haven't...
The future will tell...  Sun's future may be brighter than it's present, or
mebbe not.

Websphere's future seemed certain due to the breadth and depth of the
functionality, but for custom-coded (or even package) BIZ APPS...???


| What kind of applications do
| you write?

Payroll, G/L, A/P, A/R, inventory, order entry, sales, networks, custom mods
to packages like Mapics, Lawson, and Edwards, property management,
interfacing (betewen packages and package-to-home-grown and between
home-grown *SBS), warehousing, EDI, POS, advertising, PC-stuff, more of each
of the previous and then drug into Management of same.. Synon-generated
apps, NT admin for a brief time, client/server some, Web sites and CMS
(using tools).. pretty much in that order over the past 25 years now.

I've played with stuff like Obsydian, CGI, scripting languages, and such and
studied MI pretty seriously for a time.  I would say I'm pretty mediocre
with those but, at the same time, have a pretty fair idea what they're
capable of.  I'm decent (not good, but better than mediocre) doing
middleware (head hangin'.. mumbles... in VB <cough>...;-)

I did some systems programming in my earlier years, around '79-'80,
including a screen painter, a mini-compiler, and a code-generator (not
ANYwhere near as full-featured as Synon, but more sophisticated than RPGIII
and perhaps Synon in some respects).. on a 64K machine with no virtual
memory in RPGII.  (I'm also the proud owner of the source for the first
(non-IBM) MI compiler, but did NOT write it m'self.  Never did much with it
but study the source, but still have it for sentimental reasons, around here
somplace.)


There is more that I have NOT done but would like to, than what I HAVE done,
'course.  But I think I have a pretty good overall view of what RPG is
capable of.


**Btw, what about you, Aaron...??  Anybody happen to grill Hans or any-a the
other recent posters on their Biz application programming background???**


| Maybe your particular area of programming doesn't require these
| new features
| - though I find that hard to believe.

I didn't REQUIRE virtual memory do to a compiler or semi-Synon-RPGIII, but
it sure WOULD-a been nice.  Didn't REQUIRE procedures, or pointers, or even
IF/THEN constructs because I coded VERY structured RPGII...  Wouldn't give
them up for ANYthing, nor CL (unless I was FORCED to).  Procedure
overloading wouldn't have been of much use, btw.

You probably would find a lotta this hard to believe, Aaron.

|
| As far as needing more functionality in SEU. . . that's what WDSc is for.

No sh*t Sherlock...!  When it handles RPG as efficiently as SEU, I'll give
it a whorl.  (Haven't read Joe's article yet, but doubt that now's the
time...  Could be another deal like Code, where it's obsoleted just as it's
starting to get to "prime time".)


| Sure it would be nice to have a server side GUI editor that didn't rely on
| Java or my WindowsXP to run, but if we waited for that we wouldn't have a
| better editor for quite some time.

Sounds like you're gonna be waiting a long time for an editor that's as
efficient as SEU, also, from what I've "heard" so far.  Bells and whistles
don't mean as much as always-on and subsecond response time, btw.

|
| <jt>
| I'm not gonna be popular with this list, of course, but imo (and I'm
| *fairly* certain the opinion of the VAST majority of ALL RPG coders) you
| wasted a lotta resources implementing /FREE, before you EVEN
| thought through
| how to effectively syntax-check the stuff.
| </jt>
|
| And where do you get your statistics?  Joe Pluta? <VBG>

And where do you get your's, Aaron...  This list mainly??  I've talked with
a lotta different KINDS-a coders over the years.  This makes up for lack of
quantity (and actually, MORE than makes up for it by a large margin).
Meaning from the best to the less-than-best.. from the most extreme
gearheads to those who just code 'cause it pays better than secretarial..
non-technical Managers to VERY-technical Managers.  I learned SOMEthing from
most every one-a them, btw.  A LOT from many.

|
| <jt>
| I'm sure it's made ToroLabs very popular with the folks that frequent this
| list though, and is part of Software Group's "grand" design to FORCE all
| coders to move to Java.
| </jt>
|
| Not improving RPG forces people to Java.

You don't get it, do you Aaron...?  Java is already available on the 400.
Anybody who wants to go to Java can do so of their own free will right now.
Haven't noticed that so far.

Why don't you ask around a little more, though...  Ask Brad Stone, or Nathan
Andelin, or the folks at Easy/400 or try Joe's PSC, and THEN determine
whether you can do web programming (for example) using the current RPG,
before you suggest more so-called improvements that make RPG look like just
another variant of Java are REQUIRED.  MANDATORY, or RPG will "stay a
second-rate language".  (It's already become just yet another variant of C,
btw.  C is available on the 400, too, so people that preferred that
look-and-feel COULD just use C.)

Do you know what YOU'RE talking about here, Aaron?  (I may be misreading,
but I take it that's the underlying question you're asking me.)


| <jt>
| I apologize to those on this list, and IBM, who actually believe that
| operator-overloading and object-RPG is a necessity for business
| application
| design...  It isn't.
| </jt>
|
| Assuming the compiler team doesn't also update SEU,

Well, I wouldn't bet ANY money that they WOULD, but I'm not a bettin'
man...;-D

| what do you consider
| valid, much needed enhancements to RPG?  Just curious.

In summary, I want most-a the same features that could be found in Word 3.0.
Why don't my typos get flagged and autocorrected, given the context of the
files referenced and fields defined??  (I'm not looking for DWIM in CL yet,
although that would seem to be just a small step away.)  I'm talking.. given
a VERY precise, KNOWN "dictionary" of available field names in a given
program, why aren't they highlighted in error, and autocorrected if possible
RIGHT when they are typed in (or hit enter, if server-side code)???

I suggested much-a this 2 1/2 years ago (iirc) on the so-called request for
opinions on V5R1 RPG enhancements on the News/400 forum.  I do not know for
an absolute fact, but I am fairly certain Hans read that post, although
doubtful many would recall it and the other points I suggested that would
make an editor better.  (Some may recall that, it turns out, the 5.1 specs
had already BEEN frozen, so that discussion was rather moot.)  I would
suggest that this could be implemented a LOT easier than implementing
syntax-checking of /FREE, and would be MUCH more useful.  MUCH more useful
than procedure overloading stuff.  I dunno if any of these were on the
recent opinion poll, but somehow I doubt it.  (Btw, why isn't each spec on
their own Excel-like tab?)

Maybe they WDSc does most-a this, but I saw a post that you had to hit
"Verify" after each line???  Maybe I misunderstood that part...  Regardless,
if WDSc doesn't do RPG, I'll hafta wait.  Visual is nice but could be
improved on, but I'm not expert and haven't played with .Net at all.
(Dunno, maybe ASNA has found the sweet spot in editors?  Haven't seen a move
en-masse to it yet.)


| Aaron Bartell
| Citizen of the iSeries Nation ;-)

Good on ya, dude!!!  But...