RE: open source rpg compiler -- RPG400-L

<Eric>
1) is OO merely a compiler feature, or is it a conceptual feature that must
be reflected in the underlying use of the language.  That is, if we could
take ANY langage and make it OO by changing the compiler, then why did we
end up with C and C++? 
</Eric>
Don't have an answer for you on this one.

<Eric>
2) do you believe that C++ is/was a GOOD implementation of OO?  Or is it
saddled with a boat-load of baggage that makes it difficult to manage?  (The
point here is that sombody took a procedural language and made it OO.  Was
the resulting langage/compiler as well suited to OO programming as a true OO
language like perl or python????)
</Eric>

Took C++ in college for one class.  Couldn't tell you a lick about it now.
I can tell you that I really like how Java works though:-)

<Eric>
3) would backward compatibility be lost in the rush to OO-enable RPG?  I
don't see any way that you could implement the changes to RPG that you
propose, without radically changing the fundamentals of the language.  How
could you possible relax factor1 op factor2 syntax without requiring code
conversion and/or rewrite? 
</Eric>

The cost of doing business.  If you need the new functionality then upgrade
to the latest and greatest compiler.  This is the same fight as /Free and we
have already discussed that.

<Eric>
4) how many programmers would be allowed to use it.  Is management ready to
port their legacy code into OO design?  I'd doubt that many would be sold on
this bill...  RPG applications have traditionally enjoyed low maintenance
costs and longer than normal lifespans.  Try to sell Joe Pluta on this, and
if you're successful I'll take a closer look. <g>
</Eric>

How do shops that have managers like that make any progress with new
technology?  If you don't need it don't use it.  If you need it then the
managers shouldn't complain about the time to learn it and the learning
curve involved.  I don't know if anyone could sell anything to Joe:-) (Eric
made me say it Joe:-)

Aaron Bartell

-----Original Message-----
From: DeLong, Eric [mailto:EDeLong@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 12:46 PM
To: 'RPG programming on the AS400 / iSeries'
Subject: RE: open source rpg compiler


Well, let's define what we're talking about then....

My questions to you:
1) is OO merely a compiler feature, or is it a conceptual feature that must
be reflected in the underlying use of the language.  That is, if we could
take ANY langage and make it OO by changing the compiler, then why did we
end up with C and C++? 

2) do you believe that C++ is/was a GOOD implementation of OO?  Or is it
saddled with a boat-load of baggage that makes it difficult to manage?  (The
point here is that sombody took a procedural language and made it OO.  Was
the resulting langage/compiler as well suited to OO programming as a true OO
language like perl or python????)

3) would backward compatibility be lost in the rush to OO-enable RPG?  I
don't see any way that you could implement the changes to RPG that you
propose, without radically changing the fundamentals of the language.  How
could you possible relax factor1 op factor2 syntax without requiring code
conversion and/or rewrite? 

4) how many programmers would be allowed to use it.  Is management ready to
port their legacy code into OO design?  I'd doubt that many would be sold on
this bill...  RPG applications have traditionally enjoyed low maintenance
costs and longer than normal lifespans.  Try to sell Joe Pluta on this, and
if you're successful I'll take a closer look. <g>

Eric DeLong
Sally Beauty Company
MIS-Project Manager (BSG)
940-898-7863 or ext. 1863



-----Original Message-----
From: Bartell, Aaron L. (TC) [mailto:ALBartell@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 11:18 AM
To: 'RPG programming on the AS400 / iSeries'
Subject: RE: open source rpg compiler


I wish so bad that I could quit using RPG and do my development in Java, but
the reality of it all is I exist in a shop where 99.9% of the programs are
written in RPG.  If it doesn't get pointed out often then people won't think
that RPG OO is needed.  As for how hard it would be to make RPG OO, I have
no idea - never written a compiler before.

Aaron Bartell

-----Original Message-----
From: DeLong, Eric [mailto:EDeLong@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 11:04 AM
To: 'RPG programming on the AS400 / iSeries'
Subject: RE: open source rpg compiler


Aaron,

It's only been pointed out about a billion times aleady that RPG is not very
well suited to true OO.  In fact, if one wants to program OO, then one would
be much better off using a language that was designed from the start to be
OO.  How much effort would need to be expended to make RPG more OO, and how
could such effort benefit the language?  IMO, you'd spend a lifetime of
effort to produce a kludge, that nobody would want to touch.

Wasted effort... :(

Eric DeLong
Sally Beauty Company
MIS-Project Manager (BSG)
940-898-7863 or ext. 1863



-----Original Message-----
From: Bartell, Aaron L. (TC) [mailto:ALBartell@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 10:48 AM
To: 'RPG programming on the AS400 / iSeries'
Subject: RE: open source rpg compiler


<Scott>
Why's that?   Java doesn't give you this additional functionality by
changing the compiler, but by providing you with pre-built classes.  Aside
from teh differences between object-oriented & procedural languages, it's
the same thing as a service program.
</Scott>

Yeah, and if you could submit some pre-built "classes" to the RPG compiler
team because they developed the compiler in a way that allowed for easy bif
integration, then we would have a much more rich collection of RPG bifs.
That is what I was getting at. . .

<Scott>
I guess I fail to see why service programs don't work just as well as
things that are built-in to the compiler.   Or, do you just like the
Factor1/OpCode/Factor2/REsult syntax better than procedure arguments?
(Personally, I like procedure arguments better)
</Scott>

I hate "Factor1/OpCode/Factor2/REsult syntax" for what it's worth.  I was
more talking about having the ability to overload user created bifs.  Having
a common library of essential user created bifs would be very useful, IMO.

<Scott>
Wait... are you saying that you would add these enhancements?   or are you
saying that you think if it was open-source, "someone" would do them for
you?
</Scott>

Both, if the RPG compiler was made "open source" in an intuitive and
uncomplicated way, then any tinkerer would have a hay day creating their
most wanted bifs (Joe Pluta would create %Move for instance:-)

<Scott>
Are you willing to learn the proprietary language that IBM writes this
compiler in (possibly at a large cost) and the various theories of
compiler development, etc, so that you can implement these features?
Just to avoid using a service program instead?
</Scott>

Hmmm. . . I am not sure.  I guess I would rather they just made RPG more
object oriented.  That way I could, for example, "extend" the VARYING length
data type and make it easier to use.

Aaron Bartell


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Klement [mailto:klemscot@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 10:21 AM
To: RPG programming on the AS400 / iSeries
Subject: RE: open source rpg compiler



> Sorry to be the voice of Java all the time, but just take one look at it's
> rich class collection.  Now this may not equate to being able to "write
> compiler functionality", but they made the concepts of the language so
open
> that you can create many rich and useful classes that tightly integrate
with
> Sun provided classes.  I don't feel that RPG has the same capabilities
with
> ILE and service programs.

Why's that?   Java doesn't give you this additional functionality by
changing the compiler, but by providing you with pre-built classes.  Aside
from teh differences between object-oriented & procedural languages, it's
the same thing as a service program.

> Take your software for instance, Scott.  I would love to have your service
> programs natively included with the RPG compiler because they are a basic
> need for any business language (HTTP, FTP, Sockets, IFS, etc).

I guess I fail to see why service programs don't work just as well as
things that are built-in to the compiler.   Or, do you just like the
Factor1/OpCode/Factor2/REsult syntax better than procedure arguments?
(Personally, I like procedure arguments better)

>
> I don't know if open source RPG would ever take off (because of the
reasons
> others have listed), but the compiler could definitely be
> re-written/modified to allow for many other necessary features.

Wait... are you saying that you would add these enhancements?   or are you
saying that you think if it was open-source, "someone" would do them for
you?

Are you willing to learn the proprietary language that IBM writes this
compiler in (possibly at a large cost) and the various theories of
compiler development, etc, so that you can implement these features?
Just to avoid using a service program instead?
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