Re: Compatibility between different vendors VTL solutions

Hi Laurence

Thanks for your reply, My apologies, my question might have been too brief
or vague.

What I meant was, what does it mean to do what you are describing in
practical terms. i.e. how would a VTL backup be restored to one of the
Power servers; what were the specific steps involved ? It sounds very
simple the way that you described it, but I was imagining that there might
be a lot of complexity in the details.

My first thought was, does this mean restore the data and then re-run the
save operation ? Apart from the practical details of releases, backup
details to run the same backup again etc, this would be a pretty
time-consuming activity and clearly you would need a spare LPAR to carry
out the operation.

My second thought was, is there a way to basically copy the entire tape
into a file on the i then reconstitute it onto another tape - maybe as a
kind of analog to a virtual tape copy operation. if the tape formats were
the same or were somehow extracted and standardised as part of the copy
operation then it seems like this would be doable so I was interested in
how this might work if that was the plan. But different size tapes, block
sizes, storage mechanisms etc. at the file level could be a challenge.

Basically I was interested in the mechanics of how this was going to be
done because I figured that either the devil was in the details and it
would not sound so attractive when the commands or process were laid out,
or there was a clever solution/alternate way of thinking about it and I
might learn something.

We have done some thinking on and off here about this because the last part
of your comment about formatting them in a SAN suggests an approach we have
been playing with - reconstituting tapes and storing them in an S3 object
store, perhaps something like ICOS. We found we could not just take the
tape files out as the de-dup database lived on the appliance (in our case a
Dell DD) so that tape would have to be re-hydrated. We worked out an
approach to do this to offload tapes from the DD into an S3 type cloud
which essentially involved something like doing a DUPTAP from the DD into a
virtual tape on a spare IBM i LPAR then moving the virtual tape images into
the object store for archival. In any event, we are still thinkign about
this so I was interested in what you had discovered.

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 1:00 PM Laurence Chiu <lchiu7@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Take 7 years worth of monthly backups written to ProtecTier VTL and move
them to a new Power system environment in a different location where they
could either be imported into a new VTL solution or be in a format on a SAN
where the data can be accessed for archive purposes.

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 11:08 AM Evan Harris <auctionitis@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Laurence

what does "Restore the VTL backups to one of the Power servers"
actually mean ?

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 10:54 AM Laurence Chiu <lchiu7@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Yes saw that and have been in contact with DSI. Looks like we have a
working plan. Restore the VTL backups to one of the Power servers and

then

ftp the backups to the second site where they can be written to the

other

VTL.

That should work I believe.

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 4:20 AM Steinmetz, Paul via MIDRANGE-L <
midrange-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Laurence,

Here's another link to review.

https://ibmsystemsmag.com/Power-Systems/12/2019/Got-ProtecTIER-Lets-Talk

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: MIDRANGE-L <midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf

Of

Rob

Berendt
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2020 8:31 AM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion <

midrange-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: RE: Compatibility between different vendors VTL solutions

Does ProtectTier allow VTL to physical tape copying? If so, could

you

hook up a new VTL and copy to that, and then that could replicate to

the

like model remote VTL.
Failing the ProtectTier connection then could you DUPMEDBRM from the
ProtectTier to a new local VTL which would then replicate to the like

model

remote VTL?
In the future you could decide to repurpose the like model VTL from

the

parent company to some more suitable location for the subsidiary.

Rob Berendt
--
IBM Certified System Administrator - IBM i 6.1 Group Dekko Dept 1600

Mail

to: 2505 Dekko Drive
Garrett, IN 46738
Ship to: Dock 108
6928N 400E
Kendallville, IN 46755
http://www.dekko.com


-----Original Message-----
From: MIDRANGE-L <midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf

Of

Laurence Chiu
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2020 2:35 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion <

midrange-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: Re: Compatibility between different vendors VTL solutions

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do

not

click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and

know

the content is safe.


Unfortunately it's a little bit more complex than that.

They organization in question is a large financial services company

with

a

semi-independent subsidiary. What we are trying to do is move a key
application running on Power servers on the main company to separate
instances running in separate data centers for the subsidiary. There

are

no

plans for the main company to move off their ProtecTier solutions but

the

subsidiary company is setting up a completely independent Power

Server

infrastructure.

This secondary infrastructure will need to be fed images from the
development LPAR for a few months during transition and also transfer

over

7 years worth of archive data in ProtecTier VTL format.

I did have an email conversation with DSI and they said they could

import

VTL backups from ProtecTier but the two VTLs have to be fiber

channel

connected. Clearly that's not an option for this organization because

the

subsidiary is 1500 km away from the main company.

I'm not sure you could even do that via DWDM or else we would need to
locate the DSI solution in the primary data center, fiber channel

connect

them and do the import and then ship the device to the secondary

site.

But

that still doesn't answer the question of how to send LPARs over for

a

few

months on a regular basis.


On Fri, Feb 14, 2020, 8:42 AM Rob Berendt <rob@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Just to add some FUD but is this a "one or the other" situation?

Meaning

are the ProtecTier and the DSI interchangeable, or is it only a one

way

migration from ProtecTier to DSI?
Instead of just adding a new unit you may have to migrate the

existing

unit first, then add your new unit.

If it is a complete migration with no continuation of

interchangeability

then you have to ask yourself if having the migration path makes it
worthwhile to go to DSI or should you just go to whatever solution

would

best fit in the long run.

Rob Berendt
--
IBM Certified System Administrator - IBM i 6.1
Group Dekko
Dept 1600
Mail to: 2505 Dekko Drive
Garrett, IN 46738
Ship to: Dock 108
6928N 400E
Kendallville, IN 46755
http://www.dekko.com


-----Original Message-----
From: MIDRANGE-L <midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf

Of

Laurence Chiu
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2020 2:22 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion <

midrange-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: Re: Compatibility between different vendors VTL solutions

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do

not

click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and

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the content is safe.


Just to add more data to my original query.

The first site uses ProtecTier as their backup mechanism. I looked
everywhere in online documentation but cannot determine if this

software

writes backups in a proprietary format or in the same format it

would

write

to a tape.

Since ProtecTier is no longer sold by IBM, they recommend DSI

products.

So

in the second data center we would probably have to purchase DSI

VTL

since

at least IBM recommends them and on the website they say they have

a

migration process from ProtecTier. The interesting question now is

how

to

transfer all the backups taken in the primary site into ProtectTier

to

be

imported into the DSI virtual tape library.

If they are not in a proprietary format, could we just transmit

them

over

the wire and then get DSI to import them as if they were coming

from

a

physical tape drive? I guess that's a question we need to ask the

vendors.

The ugliest solution of course is to dump all the backups back to

physical

tape and ship them over but that really is a last resort.

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020, 1:55 AM Rob Berendt <rob@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

DUPTAP can be an issue with a BRMS shop because you would then

lose

the

object tracking.

Rob Berendt
--
IBM Certified System Administrator - IBM i 6.1
Group Dekko
Dept 1600
Mail to: 2505 Dekko Drive
Garrett, IN 46738
Ship to: Dock 108
6928N 400E
Kendallville, IN 46755
http://www.dekko.com


-----Original Message-----
From: MIDRANGE-L <midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On

Behalf

Of

DrFranken
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 4:57 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion <

midrange-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: Re: Compatibility between different vendors VTL

solutions

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization.

Do

not

click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender

and

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I would check into the migration feature though. I am not aware,

but

could be wrong, that it actually migrates the tapes between VTLs.

When we move tapes between VTLs we do this:

Hook VTL #1 to an IBM i Partition.
Hook VTL #2 to that same IBM i Partition.

DUPTAP from VTL #1 to VTL #2.

Maybe not the slickest or simplest but it CAN easily be coded in

a

CL

program for example. AND it works.

Downside of course is that both VTLs must co-exist in the same DC

at

least for a while.

- Larry "DrFranken" Bolhuis

www.Frankeni.com
www.iDevCloud.com - Personal Development IBM i timeshare

service.

www.iInTheCloud.com - Commercial IBM i Cloud Hosting.

On 2/12/2020 4:34 PM, Laurence Chiu wrote:

Thanks that's very helpful. I was aware of DSI as a suggested

replacement

for IBM's VTL but I didn't know there was an migration path

available.

Will be interesting to know how you could migrate the volumes

created

by

IBM's VTL in one data center to another one some several

thousand

kilometers away.

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, 9:47 AM Steinmetz, Paul via MIDRANGE-L <
midrange-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Laurence Chiu

You may want to check this out.

DSI VTLs are available for purchase in IBM i environments and

can

replace

IBM ProtecTIER(r).

IBM resells Dynamic Solutions International virtual tape

libraries

for

IBM

i environments

https://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/cgi-bin/ssialias?htmlfid=897/ENUS218-064&infotype=AN&subtype=CA

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: MIDRANGE-L <midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On

Behalf

Of

Laurence Chiu
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 2:48 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion <

midrange-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Subject: Re: Compatibility between different vendors VTL

solutions

I just found out that in location A which is two sites,

ProtecTier

is

used

as the VTL solution to backup one site and transmit backups to

second

site.

We are creating a new site but want to be able to transmit

backups

from

that site as well as restore many years of backups. From my

research

it

appears today ProtecTier is no longer sold by IBM. If it uses

a

proprietary

backup format then we will face some challenges getting today

data

transferred. If it's standard tape them I guess one way or to

dump

the

virtual backups to a physical tape (s) and restore from that.

On Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 9:06 AM Rob Berendt <rob@xxxxxxxxx>

wrote:

Tough to know where to begin with that last question...
In a BRMS managed shop I would need to see some explanation

as

to

why

anything would be saved to a save file and then saved to tape

(virtual

or otherwise).

Ignoring that, when you use a VTL (Virtual Tape Library, not

to

be

confused with a tape device or a virtual tape image catalog)

the

IBM

i

thinks it's saving to an IBM tape library. To the IBM i this

tape

library could have one or more drives. And the IBM i thinks

the

library could have a vast number of tape cartridges loaded

into

the

tape library. So the IBM i sends the data to the VTL like it

was a

mylar tape library. Now, how the VTL stores the data on it's

disk

drives is it's own business and is very proprietary between

brands.

And how they replicate the data between two VTL's of the same
manufacturer is again proprietary and is NOT done by DUPMED

or

DUPMEDBRM. Therefore you cannot just plop a VTL from a

different

manufacturer in there and have them duplicate the tapes

between

each

other.

Rob Berendt
--
IBM Certified System Administrator - IBM i 6.1 Group Dekko

Dept

1600

Mail to: 2505 Dekko Drive
Garrett, IN 46738
Ship to: Dock 108
6928N 400E
Kendallville, IN 46755
http://www.dekko.com


-----Original Message-----
From: MIDRANGE-L <midrange-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On

Behalf

Of

Laurence Chiu
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2020 2:45 PM
To: Midrange Systems Technical Discussion
<midrange-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Compatibility between different vendors VTL

solutions

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the

organization.

Do

not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the

sender

and know the content is safe.


This is somewhat vague but why I asked about VTL solutions I

was

told

this.

Backups are managed using BRMS.

The application saves the DB to a Save file and then saves

the

Save

File to tape. So perhaps the storage appliance is only being

used

as

a

virtual tape device replicating what you would do with a

physical

tape

or autoloader?

So the formats are not proprietary?

On Tue, Feb 11, 2020, 1:47 PM DrFranken <

midrange@xxxxxxxxxxxx

wrote:

It would be 'very unlikely' that two different VTLs could

exchange

data unless they were both connected to an IBM i partition

where

you

could utilize DUPTAP from one to another.

From the three vendors that I've worked with significantly

the

format of the data on disk as well as the connection between

systems

are very different between them. I expect that difference

would

extend to virtually all vendors.

- Larry "DrFranken" Bolhuis

www.Frankeni.com
www.iDevCloud.com - Personal Development IBM i timeshare

service.

www.iInTheCloud.com - Commercial IBM i Cloud Hosting.

On 2/10/2020 4:36 PM, Laurence Chiu wrote:

I am in a situation where in one data center there is a VTL
solution. I want to implement in another data center a VTL
solution and then copy

all

the tape backups from the first to the second data center.
Assuming the backup is using BRMS do I need to keep the

same

hardware solution at

each

DC? So for example if one DC is using say a Dell VTL

could I

use

DSI

at

the second and still be able to migrate and use all the

backups

taken

on

the Dell?

I'm actually trying to find out what specific VTL solution

is

used

in

the

first DC but thought I would ask the generic question to

know

my

options.

Thanks

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