Re: Re: cost estimate for a GUI pilot -- MIDRANGE-L

Hi Gad,

As you can see of the above there is about as many solutions as there are
people.

I think the first thing you have to do is to describe the kind of
applications you have to build, is it a web shop, a home page with some
data or is it regular GUI replacements for existing or new ‘5250’ like
applications. In the following I assume the latter.

Secondly you will need Hebrew and RTL support, this is rater uncommon in
IBM I frameworks.

Thirdly you have both RPG and JAVA guys that uses Spring in your shop and
you indicate you may extend it with new out of college guys.

As far as I can see Spring doesn’t come with a UI framework.

Out of college guys tend to be what are called ‘front-end’ programmers that
is they make Android or iOS Apps or a-like Apps written either in java or
in C, very few define themselves as back-end programmers since it isn’t
cool.

App’s are also known as FDA’s (Front-end Driven Applications) that differs
from the server centric applications by having all components of MVC in the
client and only uses the server as a data server.

Another way to make FDA’s is to use a browser based framework programmed in
OO javascript, HTML5 and CSS3 that may server all kind of devices and they
may even be responsive to the device. Furthermore browser based FDA’s can
be converted to Android or iOS binary App’s with product like PhoneGap.

Unlike most of the mentioned frameworks in this tread that are server
centric and server program language dependent FDA’s doesn’t have that
server binding. That is that you can use both your server side java and RPG
environment to serve data to the FDA and you can develop the FDA separately
from the server development.

One of the FDA javascript frameworks is delivered by a company named Sencha
you can find here ( http://sencha.com ). Their primary products EXT JS and
Sencha Touch are used by the IBM I frameworks IceBreak, IceCap, CNX/Valence
and powerEXT (all RPG based) and Websydian (JAVA based).

A little warning, EXT JS/SenchaTouch has from an RPG programmers
perspective a steep learning curve and education is a must. A java
programmer will easier adopt since they are familiar with the concepts of
OOP.

Sorry if I had added to the total confusion.

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Aaron Bartell <aaronbartell@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Gad,

What I'd do if I were you is put together a plan for the short and long
term. The short term might involve "stepping stone" technologies that will
eventually get you to your long term plan. For example, you could use
CGIDEV2 (or any of the other RPG CGI vendors) as an initial step because of
the in-house RPG knowledge you have.

I am of the opinion that RPG, out of the box, doesn't provide as viable a
future as other popular IBM i languages (i.e. Ruby, PHP, Java, Node, etc).
I didn't arrive at that decision flippantly but over many years of doing
RPG web dev. Why do I say that? Because we simply don't have a community
that is producing tooling as fast as our businesses need it. Or rather, we
as a community have to write everything related to RPG from scratch or rely
on a few open-source-minded community members to produce it for us (i.e.
Mihael Schmidt, Scott Klement, Giovanni Perotti, etc).

Can you produce what your company needs using CGIDEV2? Absolutely! But
how long will it take to get there and will that tooling stand the test of
time? My perspective is it takes too long and no, it won't stand the test
of time once you get into more serious web development.

3. Regarding mobile application, it is not a must I believe but nice to

have

I didn't see mention of how your web app is to be used, but almost
regardless of knowing that I do believe your company needs to seriously
reconsider that mobile is merely a nice to have. There's an industry term
of "mobile first" ** that says you should consider mobile as the first
place for application delivery and build up from there. I agree with this
based on how the general population is accessing the web (increasingly
through mobile). Note they aren't talking about installable apps but
instead responsive design (i.e. when a page is rendered on a smaller page
it renders differently than if rendered on a desktop).

**http://zurb.com/word/mobile-first;

Aaron Bartell

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 2:55 AM, Gad Miron <gadmiron@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Woa

Thanks guys

LOTS of information - it's going to take me some time to assimilate

Some quick replies though:
Martin, our Java programmers use Eclipse + something they call Spring
So I guess .net is out.
Vern, I did log in to iprodeveloper but failed to follow the link you

sent.

would you be so kind and send me the PDF doc ?
Jon, a lot of homework but I sure am going to delve into it..

All,
1. I personally lean toward "Native" solution for simplicity (and

Personal

I guess) sake
(Me being a Green screen guy with SQL Sever OLAP SSIS BI on the side)
2. I think that perhaps the foremost consideration is who the future
programmers
going to be. Our good old AS400 pros or perhaps some shiny out of
college
boys and girls (not that there are any RPG-ers among them)
3. Regarding mobile application, it is not a must I believe but nice to
have
(our JAVA guys are now developing a small Android application, We'll
see)
3. Last but not least, do these tools support Bidi - most of our screens
(and data for that matter) are Hebrew.

Thanks again
Gad

On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 8:00 PM, <midrange-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Send MIDRANGE-L mailing list submissions to
midrange-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-l
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
midrange-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx

You can reach the person managing the list at
midrange-l-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxx

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of MIDRANGE-L digest..."

*** NOTE: When replying to this digest message, PLEASE remove all text
unrelated to your reply and change the subject line so it is

meaningful.

Today's Topics:

1. cost estimate for a GUI pilot (Gad Miron)
2. Re: cost estimate for a GUI pilot (Booth Martin)
3. Re: cost estimate for a GUI pilot (Vernon Hamberg)
4. Re: cost estimate for a GUI pilot (Jon Paris)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

message: 1
date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 12:16:27 +0200
from: Gad Miron <gadmiron@xxxxxxxxx>
subject: cost estimate for a GUI pilot

Hello pundits

I'm to come up with cost estimate for a GUI (modern?) interface tool
for next year budget .

I know there are several commercial tools around but I find it hard to
compare them
(i.e is Profound UI's method preferable to ASNA's)

We are a small RPG/Java shop (4 RPG programmers 3 Java)
but we do not intermix.

My immediate concern is to set a budget for the pilot project but I

have

to

decide
on the right course first.

I would greatly appreciate your advice regarding the tools, methods,
costs etc.

Thanks
Gad

------------------------------

message: 2
date: Sun, 02 Nov 2014 09:28:25 -0600
from: Booth Martin <booth@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: cost estimate for a GUI pilot

What do the Java developers use?

On 11/2/2014 4:16 AM, Gad Miron wrote:

Hello pundits

I'm to come up with cost estimate for a GUI (modern?) interface tool
for next year budget .

I know there are several commercial tools around but I find it hard

to

compare them
(i.e is Profound UI's method preferable to ASNA's)

We are a small RPG/Java shop (4 RPG programmers 3 Java)
but we do not intermix.

My immediate concern is to set a budget for the pilot project but I

have

to

decide
on the right course first.

I would greatly appreciate your advice regarding the tools, methods,
costs etc.

Thanks
Gad

--
Booth Martin
www.martinvt.com
(802)461-5349
Skype: booth.martin

Be seeing you.

------------------------------

message: 3
date: Sun, 02 Nov 2014 09:37:17 -0600
from: Vernon Hamberg <vhamberg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: cost estimate for a GUI pilot

Gad

It has been a little over 3 years since I wrote an article on Open
Access for iSeries News - now iprodeveloper - the link might be at

http://iprodeveloper.com/article/special-report-open-access-rpg-what-it-how-it-works-and-hands-experience

You do need a free access user/password, as I recall.

If you can't find it, let me know, I'll find a way to get you the PDF -
it's about 3.5MB - it was meant to be a pretty even-handed overview of

3

products, from ProfoundLogic, lookSoftware, and ASNA. I presented,

based

on some conversations with vendors, what their methodology is. I think
BCD has entered the arena since then, but you'd want to check into

that.

As to cost estimates - you'll best go to each vendor - prices vary
processor level - I have such an estimate from one of the vendors that

I

don't think I'm in any position to disclose. Let's just say it's
probably more than 10,000 bucks and less than a million - a range of 2
orders of magnitude.

What value do you get - that should determine your choice. Also, what
would it cost you do do it without one of these products?

HTH
Vern

On 11/2/2014 4:16 AM, Gad Miron wrote:

Hello pundits

I'm to come up with cost estimate for a GUI (modern?) interface tool
for next year budget .

I know there are several commercial tools around but I find it hard

to

compare them
(i.e is Profound UI's method preferable to ASNA's)

We are a small RPG/Java shop (4 RPG programmers 3 Java)
but we do not intermix.

My immediate concern is to set a budget for the pilot project but I

have

to

decide
on the right course first.

I would greatly appreciate your advice regarding the tools, methods,
costs etc.

Thanks
Gad

------------------------------

message: 4
date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 11:27:31 -0500
from: Jon Paris <jon.paris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: cost estimate for a GUI pilot

As I usually tell my clients when they ask questions like this - part

of

the problem is that until you have tried to build a few web apps you

don?t

really know what questions to ask. And you haven?t told what, if any,
experience you have. That said ...

There are so many tools to chose between you probably need to use some
broad categorization criterial first.

Because you don?t currently interact with the Java folks doesn?t mean

you

shouldn?t in the future. Many RPGers I have met (myself included) are
dreadful at UI design - too many years of thinking inside little green
boxes! You are probably going to need GUI design help.

One basic question you need to answer: Do you plan to repurpose

existing

RPG green-screen apps or are you only building new ones?

Repurposing would normally narrow your field to the Open Access based
tools such as openlook, ProfoundUI, Ansa?s Wings, Rocket?s LegaSuite,

and

others I can?t recall.

If that is the direction you go then other criteria may play a role.

For

example, openlook and Wings both use a Windows server as part of the
process. Wings will tie you into the world of .Net - that may be

desirable

depending on what other systems are in use in-house. Profound is the

only

one I know of that is all native. Not sure about LegaSuite.

If you want to build new applications that will never have a green

screen

component then the range is huge (including most of the tools already
mentioned), but there are some other considerations that may impact

your

choice. Here?s just a few thoughts:

- Is mobile part of the picture? Some tools, Lansa LongRange for

example,

are for mobile only. Others, like CNX?s Valence has strong mobile

support

but also can build conventional web apps.

- What are your Java developers using? If as seems likely it is JSPs

then

a product that uses a JSP/ASP type approach might be a good idea.

Icebreak

from System and Method is in that category as is one of the tools from
Profound. I _think_ Asna have one that is ASP-like but not sure.

- Are your developers familiar with the idea of application frameworks
(your Java folks probably are) - if so one free options would be
Renaissance. But others would include tools like Valence and powerExt

just

to name two.

I would suggest that you try to narrow the field based on these kinds

of

criteria. Get basic price quotes from those vendors, and then narrow

the

field to a couple that fit within your broad budget range. Understand

that

a cheaper tool will probably come with less free education and

handholding

so you might want to get an idea of how much the ?extras? like that

will

cost. Also remember that some products will have a run-time licence so
watch out for what your ongoing costs will be. Visit the vendor?s web

sites

and look for free video presentations of what the tools can do - most

of

them have them along with recorded webcasts.

Pick two (or three if you have time) and install the demo version. Give

it

a test drive and see what you think. See if it ?feels right? to you. I
often find it useful to then attempt to quickly teach what I?ve learned

to

others on the team - it often helps cement my own ideas.

Back in 2003 I was part of producing a series of articles on the

general

subject of modernization - part 1 is here:

http://www.ibmsystemsmag.com/ibmi/developer/modernization/From-Green-to-Dream/

and contains links to the other parts. It is more than 10 years old so
things have of course changed, but many of the decision points are

still

the same so it might be worth a read.

I also often tell clients that they should accept that one tool may not
address all of their needs. What will work best for you when first get
started may not work for you longer term.

Last but not least - have you read the relevant chapters of the
Modernization Redbook? If not that is also a good starting point.
http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg248185.html?Open

Hope this helps.

Jon Paris

www.partner400.com
www.SystemiDeveloper.com

On Nov 2, 2014, at 5:16 AM, Gad Miron <gadmiron@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hello pundits

I'm to come up with cost estimate for a GUI (modern?) interface tool
for next year budget .

I know there are several commercial tools around but I find it hard

to

compare them
(i.e is Profound UI's method preferable to ASNA's)

We are a small RPG/Java shop (4 RPG programmers 3 Java)
but we do not intermix.

My immediate concern is to set a budget for the pilot project but I

have

to

decide
on the right course first.

I would greatly appreciate your advice regarding the tools, methods,
costs etc.

Thanks
Gad
--
This is the Midrange Systems Technical Discussion (MIDRANGE-L)

mailing

list

To post a message email: MIDRANGE-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-l
or email: MIDRANGE-L-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
at http://archive.midrange.com/midrange-l.

------------------------------

Subject: Digest Footer

--
This is the Midrange Systems Technical Discussion (MIDRANGE-L) digest

list

To post a message email: MIDRANGE-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-l
or email: MIDRANGE-L-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
at http://archive.midrange.com/midrange-l.

------------------------------

End of MIDRANGE-L Digest, Vol 13, Issue 1738
********************************************

--
This is the Midrange Systems Technical Discussion (MIDRANGE-L) mailing

list

To post a message email: MIDRANGE-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-l
or email: MIDRANGE-L-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
at http://archive.midrange.com/midrange-l.

--
This is the Midrange Systems Technical Discussion (MIDRANGE-L) mailing list
To post a message email: MIDRANGE-L@xxxxxxxxxxxx
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-l
or email: MIDRANGE-L-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
at http://archive.midrange.com/midrange-l.