RE: Thats all folks! -- MIDRANGE-L

Hi John,

On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, John Ross wrote:
>
> You know the 5250 data stream better then I do, but couldn't someone
> besides IBM do this by using hidden fields? Like putting button Exit as
> hidden and then text like F3=Exit as normal text. So for a normal data
> stream it shows F3=Exit, but on your graphical data stream it makes a
> button that has Exit. But it always takes extra work to code for more then
> one platform, green screen and graphical. And going through this with Java,
> all for graphical interfaces just different OSes, it sure makes me wonder
> if it is all worth it.  And IBM might of tired this if more users would of
> tried the scroll bars (that no one I talked with liked on 5250).

Hidden fields take up space on the screen, which would seriously limit the
data you could use on both the 5250 and GUI side of things, you'd have to
leave gaps, etc.

In addition, this would not be the simple, intuitive solution that I was
looking for.  It might be great for us techies, but I think to really draw
in the larger business crowd, you need something very simple and easy to
do, not just a hack to the existing 5250 data stream.

I'd really like to see something more like having two separate display
file objects, a GUI one and a 5250 one.   Then, with OVRDSPF, we could
select which one to use....  the interface to the program would be
identical between the two, so we wouldn't have to rewrite existing
programs to make them work (unless we needed advanced features, of course)

The big problem is 5250 is just too limited.  Even in comparison to the
plain-text screens in DOS and BSD/Linux/Unix, it's quite limited.

>
> And if you want all graphical interface seams like you could come up with
> something if you really needed it, that included how to draw the screen,
> something like the x server on Linux (I have not seen anything on the X
> server so not sure how it works).
>

Again, for us techies, that'd be fine.   In fact, using PASE, you can run
X11 on your iSeries...  I think there was another company that even wrote
a native X for the iSeries.

I've even seen IBM web pages that refer to using VNC to access X11 from
a Windows workstation.

But, none of this would be simple enough for the average business
programmer to implement.   You're not likely to see discussions about
accessing XLib from an RPG program.  Even for those of us who have written
X11 apps under Linux, the transition would be very difficult.

The business software community doesn't want to concentrate on techie/geek
knowledge... they want to concentrate on their business logic and
business needs.   That's why 5250 green screen works so well, they go
into SDA and draw up a quick screen, and almost effortlessly access it
from an RPG program.

They don't have to write routines to make the cursor move the way they
want it to, or deal with focus into/out of fields, etc.   Making the
screens work exactly the way they want them to is not a major part of
the program design like it is with most GUI systems.

IMHO, that's why you see so many people trying to make their apps GUI
by either using (blech) screen scrapers, or by (sigh) using a web browser
as a terminal.   All they have to do is create the screen design, they
don't have to deal with every little aspect of it.

So, that's what I'm thinking would really help make the iSeries a leader
again.  A new display stream that works like 5250, but looks and feels
modern.   Simple to design screens in.   Has the stability of OS/400.
Error handling is reported in the job log, etc, like it has been for
5250 terminals.  Able to use commands like STRSRVJOB and STRCPYSCN
to troubleshoot things for users.

> The Linux user group I go to is big into the Linux Terminal Server
> Project  http://www.ltsp.org  Which is sort of like what you are talking
> about, the Linux server runs the X server and the clients just displays the
> window. The kernel is loaded off of the server. This project used TN5250
> because they had to also work with an AS/400 (green screen).
> http://www.ltsp.org/longstory.php
>

Yes, X11 does all of these things pretty well.  But somehow, Microsoft
continues to dominate the market.  Go figure.

> And it is not all IBM's fault, sometimes it could because the AS400
> community it so slow to adopt new technology or learn anything on their  own.
>

Amen to that!

But again, I think the basic reason for this is that the complexity of
doing these things is beyond what a business programmer really wants to
do.  So, they end up with things like screen scrapers that don't really
improve the display, because they're still limited by the 5250 data
stream.

Why did RPG IV and ILE get such a slow adoption?  Because of the
perception that it's too complicated to learn.   So, only the techies have
done it.

But, if we could use a graphical tool to design our screen, and have it
then work as a seperate display file with existing software, I don't think
that rate of adoption would be so slow.

For the most part, I'm just musing, however.