RE: OO Hybrids (was WANTED - RPG TALEN...) -- MIDRANGE-L

Hans,

I was not meaning to start a VC++ vs Java debate.  Was just curious 
about the "OO Hybrid" statements you had made.

I do agree that memory management is something you have to be very 
careful about in C++.  And Java makes it very easy...eg: It does it, 
you don't have to worry about it.

But memory management is not what OO is about.  Though it makes it 
MUCH easier to do...at least when compared with straight C.

One thing I really liked about Java was the "implements interface" 
clause...that was very handy.  I suspect the C++ multiple inheritance 
does the same thing, but I haven't played with it yet as it seemed 
pretty scary at the time. But with Java, its use is obvious.

And by removing the memory management stuff, it just makes it easier 
to learn than say C++...but I wouldn't go as far as saying it's the 
difference between Assembler and RPG.

Another thing that makes Java easier to learn than C++ is Windows. 
The AWT is much easier to work with than MFC or <shudder> the raw 
Windows API.  IMHO, the Windows API vs AWT is an "Assembler vs 
ILE/RPG" thing!

I also think Java has a future, possibly a very good one...if it can 
survive Bill Gates.  Or is the question "Can Bill Gates survive Java"? 
My feeling is that it will NOT be the DOJ that humbles Microsoft, but 
a paradigm shift such as caught IBM in the 80's.  That shift just 
might be Java for Bill.

Now about VAC++ and V3R1.....

I must be able to target V3R1. I can not afford to shrink my customer 
base (current & future) by requiring anything higher. No way I could 
force my customers to V4R2 so Java is out.  That leaves me with a mish 
mash of ILE/C and ILE/RPG.  IBM has been talking about being friendly 
to ISV's lately.  This ISV would love Windows VAC++ to target V3R1 
(even if V3R7 is required for development, that is not a problem).  I 
know you cant solve this, but I'm venting anyway.

Regards,
Bob Crothers
Cornerstone Communications, LLC


-----Original Message-----
From:   Hans Boldt [SMTP:boldt@ca.ibm.com]
Sent:   Monday, June 01, 1998 8:31 AM
To:     MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com
Subject:        RE: OO Hybrids (was WANTED - RPG TALEN...)

Why am I so down on C++?  In a typicall OO app, objects are created
and destroyed with great frequency.  In C++, you have to deal with 
much
of the overhead of object creation and destruction yourself.  As a 
result,
many of the program defects introduced during coding relate to memory
management - dangling references, memory leaks, etc.  (Actually, you
could write perfect C++ code and still have problems since many C++
systems themselves have memory leaks in their run-time code!)

Java, on the other hand, uses a "Garbage Collection" system to manage
memory.  As long as some variable references an object, the storage
for that object is kept.  But when no variable references the object, 
Java
knows that the storage is available for reuse.  This is perhaps the 
biggest
single contributor to increased programmer productivity in Java.

>From my own personal experience, all of the problems with managing
storage in C++ was what discouraged me the most.  C++ programming
seemed too much like work.  Since Java manages storage on it's own,
you are free to concentrate on the problem at hand.  It's like the 
difference
between assembler language and RPG.

BTW, I've heard that the GC system in the AS/400's JVM is one of the
best in the industry.

Cheers!  Hans

Hans Boldt, ILE RPG Development, IBM Toronto Lab, boldt@ca.ibm.com




owner-midrange-l@midrange.com on 98-05-30 13:02:22
Please respond to MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com
To: MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com
cc:
Subject: RE: OO Hybrids (was WANTED - RPG TALEN...)


Hans,

I agree that Object Oriented and Object based are 2 very
different things.  I've been a big OO supported for a long time.

Can you expand on your statement "hybrids like C++ cause more
problems than they're worth."?

Do you say this because you can still do straight line code in
C++?

Granted, my first C++ program was really a C program that used
some of the MFC collection classes.  My Second C++ program had
some classes of my own, but still wasn't true OO.  By about the
5th or so program, I was doing OO.

>From an academic point of view, I agree that programs 1 thru 4
where violating everything they hold near and dear to their
hearts.  However, it allowed me to "ease" into OO, and did show
me the value of OO.  And kept my boss happy in that I was still
productive during my learning curve.

Now days, I am an OO fanatic!  In fact, that is why I'm still
pissed at Toronto for not allowing VAC++ to target V3R1!  It
leaves me stuck in the ILE/C world.  And after falling in love
with C++, ILE/C sucks.  As a result, my code is a mixture of
ILE/C and RPG.

Regards,
Bob Crothers
Cornerstone Communications




-----Original Message-----
From: Hans Boldt [SMTP:boldt@ca.ibm.com]
Sent: Friday, May 29, 1998 7:21 AM
To: MIDRANGE-L@midrange.com
Subject: RE: WANTED - RPG TALENT--Global issue We need to Act on
this

Stan wrote:
<snip>
(IMHO, hybrids like
C++ cause more problems than they're worth.)

Cheers!  Hans

Hans Boldt, ILE RPG Development, IBM Toronto Lab,
boldt@ca.ibm.com
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