Re: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 180 -- MIDRANGE-JOBS

To attempt to help answer the availability of talent question -- I will
share what I found in the past year researching an answer to the future
availability of US iSeries talent at the request of a customer. College
students in the United States (along with England and several other
"West" countries) have turned to selecting (what a located article
called) "soft" majors such as sociology, psychology, anthropology,
history and philosophy rather than "hard" majors such as business MIS,
computer science, chemistry, biology, physics, math and engineering. The
college group accrediting MIS and computer science require advance
knowledge of, at least, one programming language for the major and many
prospective students are looking just to write Excel spreadsheets or
managing a firewall. Some colleges are pushing "sexy" things like human
interfaces rather than "dull" programing languages to retain students.
One well known university taught students to learn human interfaces
(web) since Americans do the "sexy" things and H-1Bs do "dull"
procedural programming. H-1B news stories are a self-fulfilling
prophecy. Parents, having read the stories, tell their child they will
have to earn their own money to pay for college if they select computer
science as their major and vocation. Adding to the response of parents
are recent graduates saying that a MIS or computer science major was
unrelated to what employers were looking for.

Importantly in the iSeries world, "a good job is never done by cheap labor", where "cheap" is more about motivation and skill level than of salary.

To be more iSeries specific: Rated acceptable and an easy change by
professionals and employers was the change from RPG/400 to RPG IV. Rated
as unacceptable by professionals and employers because if required
re-training, wasn't an easy change was the many versions of Microsoft
VisualBasic and .NET. Professionals saw more future to COBOL than to
Fortran, Pascal or Basic. I found more community and 4 years colleges
promoting iSeries courses than the number 3 and 5 years ago (what was
measured was courses they claimed to teach since I couldn't easily find
out how many students they actually taught).

Problems with hiring a newly graduated MIS or computer science major is
that they are not fully productive for five years. (I think of it this
way: Most graduates of a medical school serve one year as an intern
before they go on to a residency or general practice. Computer science
graduates are an intern for five years before society is safe from
them.) The average of all (novice and expert) new hires by employers is
that it takes 6 months as the new employer to understand the employer's
policies, procedures, applications and the value of their current
production begins to be more than their currently cost. One audit
analysis of what "consultants" from a firm heavy on recent graduates was
that they produced 2 cents on the dollar. That is, the staff of the
employer spent 98 cents to get what they produced to work and be
documented correctly.

bestjobs wrote:

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I can speak from experience - it IS very hard to find IT workers, local or
not, that have the specific skills employers want - which right now is java
or c#. I'm sorry, but it is not about trying to find a foreign worker at a
depressed wage - it is about trying to find someone with the skills.
Employers want to bring someone in who already possesses the skills they
need as it is expensive and time consuming to train people that don't. Some
day java programmers will have a hard time finding a job because there will
be a new 'whizbang' language that has replaced it. It is difficult in IT
to keep up one's skills but marketability absolutely depends on it. We are
in a global economy - like it or not. If someone in India, Pakistan, China,
etc has the skills a company needs then they are going to find an easier
time finding a job than a local person who does not have the specific skills
required for the job. I hate it but it is true.

Brian Whitfield
Essential Resources

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-jobs-bounces+bestjobs1=mindspring.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-jobs-bounces+bestjobs1=mindspring.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of midrange-jobs-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:49 PM
To: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 180

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Dissed-belief (bazangare@xxxxxxx)
2. Re: Dissed-belief (SJL)
3. Re: Dissed-belief (Timothy Grove)
4. Re: Dissed-belief (SJL)
5. Re: Dissed-belief (Shadrach Scott)
6. Re: Dissed-belief (Joe Murfitt)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

message: 1
date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:53:11 -0500
from: bazangare@xxxxxxx
subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Dissed-belief

Let's also outsource jobs in Congress while we're at it!

-----Original Message-----
From: Timothy Grove <tagrove@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:42 pm
Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Dissed-belief

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On the note of Immigration reform: The proposal to have a "guest worker" program. Great in theory, but the "guests" being considered by the bill
that was defeated were on a merit system where highly educated people got
first crack. It sounded to me like the "guest worker" that Congress was
trying to bring in to the country wasn't the farm laborer, but <gasp> the
high-tech people who are not able to get in because of the H1-B cap.

Under that proposal, we would have STILL had millions of illegal cheap farm
labor who didn't qualify under the merit system AND whole bunches of cheap
high-tech skilled labor.

Gotta love Congress. Best government money can buy.

----- Original Message ----
From: Joe Pluta <joepluta@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:22:58 PM
Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Dissed-belief

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From: Cindy Howard

I'm sorry to interrupt here, and I don't know if what you are saying about the grant is true or not, but the problem isn't that we don't have educated, trained IT professionals available in the US. There are plenty of educated, trained, AND experienced people available to fill the

jobs.

I agree. Like in so many industries being flooded with external labor, it's
not that there are no workers. It's just that there are no workers willing
to work for the artificially depressed wages that employers can pay to
people from countries that don't have our standards, from safety to health
to cost of living.

The only good news is that Congress seems finally to recognize the fact that
illegal immigration is a threat to the country. Hopefully we can convince
them that cheap visa labor is just as bad, if not worse, of a threat,
because it drains us of those high-end jobs that we need to be competitive
in the global economy.

But the only way to sway Congress these days is the old fashioned way:
threaten to vote them out of office. Appealing to their sense of duty is
pretty much a lost cause.

Joe

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message: 2
date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:40:31 -0600
from: "SJL" <sjl_abc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Dissed-belief

Vinod wrote:
Not sure if I understood the response to the info wrong or others have worngly inferred the award.
"H-1B HIGH GROWTH JOB TRAINING GRANTS"
I'm not for or against H1B...being a beneficiary of this...:-) Now, coming to the grants...the money is collected from employers who employ H1B & then this is disbursed to encourage IT education/Job

training in US.

Vinod is partially right, but unfortunately, he is DEAD wrong about the IT
education part
above:
If you re-read the Original Post, this money is being used for...

: As of March 2006, 131 grants worth over $258 million have been awarded
: under the High Growth Job Training Initiative.
: Between July 1, 2005 and March 30, 2006 over $54 million in H-1B funds
: have been awarded under the High Growth Job Training Initiative.
: During 2006, competitions are expected for talent development investments
: in the advanced manufacturing, construction, and energy under the
President's
: High Growth Job Training Initiative.
: Under the WIRED Initiative, ETA has awarded $195 million in
: grants lasting three years to thirteen regions.

I DO NOT see any mention of IT training in these grants - because there is
NONE.

- sjl

------------------------------

message: 3
date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:49:33 -0800 (PST)
from: Timothy Grove <tagrove@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Dissed-belief

Does anyone know where funding can be found for IT job training?

----- Original Message ----
From: SJL <sjl_abc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 2:40:31 PM
Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Dissed-belief

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list.

Vinod wrote:
Not sure if I understood the response to the info wrong or others have worngly inferred the award.
"H-1B HIGH GROWTH JOB TRAINING GRANTS"
I'm not for or against H1B...being a beneficiary of this...:-) Now, coming to the grants...the money is collected from employers who employ H1B & then this is disbursed to encourage IT education/Job

training in US.

Vinod is partially right, but unfortunately, he is DEAD wrong about the IT
education part
above:
If you re-read the Original Post, this money is being used for...

: As of March 2006, 131 grants worth over $258 million have been awarded
: under the High Growth Job Training Initiative.
: Between July 1, 2005 and March 30, 2006 over $54 million in H-1B funds
: have been awarded under the High Growth Job Training Initiative.
: During 2006, competitions are expected for talent development investments
: in the advanced manufacturing, construction, and energy under the
President's
: High Growth Job Training Initiative.
: Under the WIRED Initiative, ETA has awarded $195 million in
: grants lasting three years to thirteen regions.

I DO NOT see any mention of IT training in these grants - because there is
NONE.

- sjl

--
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------------------------------

message: 4
date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:01:59 -0600
from: "SJL" <sjl_abc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Dissed-belief

Mumbai?
Bangalore?

- sjl

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Grove" <tagrove@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Dissed-belief

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list.

Does anyone know where funding can be found for IT job training?

----- Original Message ----
From: SJL <sjl_abc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 2:40:31 PM
Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Dissed-belief

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list.

Vinod wrote:
Not sure if I understood the response to the info wrong or others have

worngly inferred

the award.
"H-1B HIGH GROWTH JOB TRAINING GRANTS"
I'm not for or against H1B...being a beneficiary of this...:-)
Now, coming to the grants...the money is collected from employers who
employ H1B & then this is disbursed to encourage IT education/Job

training in US.

Vinod is partially right, but unfortunately, he is DEAD wrong about the IT

education
part
above:
If you re-read the Original Post, this money is being used for...

: As of March 2006, 131 grants worth over $258 million have been awarded
: under the High Growth Job Training Initiative.
: Between July 1, 2005 and March 30, 2006 over $54 million in H-1B funds
: have been awarded under the High Growth Job Training Initiative.
: During 2006, competitions are expected for talent development

investments

: in the advanced manufacturing, construction, and energy under the

President's

: High Growth Job Training Initiative.
: Under the WIRED Initiative, ETA has awarded $195 million in
: grants lasting three years to thirteen regions.

I DO NOT see any mention of IT training in these grants - because there is

NONE.

- sjl

--
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list

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http://jobs.midrange.com

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------------------------------

message: 5
date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:28:20 -0800
from: Shadrach Scott <shadrachscott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Dissed-belief

I strongly disagree that there are plenty of educated and trained professionals available. I am not a programmer and I get the feeling the majority of the people frustrated by the H-1B situation are programmers. I quit my very high paying job with great benefits on purpose over 12 months ago. Most of the IT professionals in the market have outdated skills so I now contract and make more than top dollar working for companies that are having a hard time finding people with the skills they need. I do for them what they can not find in the open market at a premium. I pick and choose my jobs and keep raising my rate and I have more work than I want. The company I worked for had an open position when I quit and then opened my position. In the +12 months since I left they have only been able to find one person who was somewhat qualified and they ended up letting them go after 3 months. One of my best friends switched jobs a few months back and was offered the job on the spot plus was offered higher than market because the interviewer told him that in 6 months he was the first person he had interviewed he would even consider hiring. I live in southern California, orange county area and I know a lot of people in the business and I constantly here from them how frustrated they are when it comes to finding qualified people. I have interviewed dozens of people for iSeries jobs over the years, and you ask them questions about networking, SSL, journaling, commitment control, writing secure applications, how to create test scripts, and they will often not even know the basic concepts - and these are people who claim to have years of experience.

I don't know who gets the h-1b money, and I don't worry about it. The last timed I payed for training I knew more than the trainer. I train myself using the free resources on the internet or sometimes I purchase a reference book and I put the time in to understand the concepts. Lots of time I learn on the job, just today someone asked me if I could put together an active directory script to make some user account changes. I have never written an AD script in my life, I am an iSeries guy but I understand the concepts, I went to the internet to free resources and found the information I needed, created a test plan, put the script together, tested it, documented it and at the end of the day I had a very happy client and I was happy - I got payed to learn today.

I don't want anyone to lose there job, and I am sure it is even more frustrating when you get outsourced, but I believe we all need to plan to someday lose our job. So I make sure I keep current, I network with people, I have my rainy day + perfect time for a vacation fund and I believe new challenges are a great thing.

Shadrach Scott

Cindy Howard wrote:

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list.

I'm sorry to interrupt here, and I don't know if what you are saying about

the grant is true or not, but the problem isn't that we don't have educated,
trained IT professionals available in the US. There are plenty of educated,
trained, AND experienced people available to fill the jobs.

Cindy> From: pvinodr@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Date:

Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:42:39 -0500> Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Dissed-belief>

*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list!>

*** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL> ***
Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this list.>

Not sure if I understood the response to the info wrong or others have

worngly inferred the award.> "H-1B HIGH GROWTH JOB TRAINING GRANTS"> I'm not
for or against H1B...being a beneficiary of this...:-)> Now, coming to the
grants...the money is collected from employers who employ H1B & then this is
disbursed to encourage IT education/Job training in US.> > Rgds,Vinod >
From: AlexMRPG@xxxxxxx> To: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx; jmurfitt@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:00:12 -0500> Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS]
Dissed-belief> > *** Please pay close attention when replying to a message
on this list!> *** If y
ou want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL> *** Recruiters may
advertise only permanent employment positions in this list.> > > I was just
looking for a government grant for a first time business possibly a
consulting company, when I came across this. A Federally funded government
grant encouraging hiring of H1B's this was just a small excerpt of what they
consider accomplishments with what is called "High Growth Job Training
Initiative"! > > ----- Original Message -----> > > > From: Joe
Murfitt<mailto:jmurfitt@xxxxxxxxxx> > To: 'Alex
Montalvo'<mailto:alexmrpg@xxxxxxx> ;
midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent:
Saturday, November 24, 2007 7:25 PM> Subject: RE: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] (no subje>
ct)> > > This is exactly why I'm looking into getting out of the IT
profession.> > > H-1B HIGH GROWTH JOB TRAINING GRANTS > > PROGRAM
ACCOMPLISHMENTS > As of March 2006, 131 grants worth over $258 million have
been awarded> under the High Growth Job Tra
ining Initiative. Between July 1, 2005 and> March 30, 2006 over $54 million
in H-1B funds have been awarded under the> High Growth Job Training
Initiative. During 2006, competitions are expected> for talent development
investments in the advanced manufacturing,> construction, and energy under
the President's High Growth Job Training> Initiative. Under the WIRED
Initiative, ETA has awarded $195 million in> grants lasting three years to
thirteen regions. An additional competition> under the WIRED Initiative was
announced in February 2006 > -- > This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings &
Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS) mailing> list> To post a message email:
MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx>> To subscribe,
unsub> scribe, or change list options,> visit:
http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs<http://lists.midran
ge.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs>> or email:
MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx

.> > Don

't forget to check the midrange.com jobs board at>
http://jobs.midrange.com<http://jobs.midrange.com/>> > -- > This is the
Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS) mailing list> To post a
message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or
change list options,> visit:
http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs> or email:
MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Don't forget to check the
midrange.com jobs board at http://jobs.midrange.com> -- > This is the
Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS) mailing list> To post a
message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or
change list options,> visit:
http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs> or email:
MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Don't forget to check the
midrange.com jobs board at http://jobs.midrange.com

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------------------------------

message: 6
date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:51:47 -0500
from: "Joe Murfitt" <jmurfitt@xxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Dissed-belief

I find it amusing that you question there being educated people out there
looking for work. From your writing it's obvious you don't have command of
the English language. You don't know the difference between here and hear,
their and there, and oh yes it's paid not payed. You might have excellent
coding skills, but lack other necessary skills. Just because there are areas
that people lack knowledge of does not mean they do not have any experience.
If I was to use your thinking than I would have to guess from your writing
that you are uneducated.

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-jobs-bounces+jmurfitt=cfl.rr.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-jobs-bounces+jmurfitt=cfl.rr.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Shadrach Scott
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:28 PM
To: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Dissed-belief

*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list!
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*** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this
list.

I strongly disagree that there are plenty of educated and trained professionals available. I am not a programmer and I get the feeling the majority of the people frustrated by the H-1B situation are programmers. I quit my very high paying job with great benefits on purpose over 12 months ago. Most of the IT professionals in the market have outdated skills so I now contract and make more than top dollar working for companies that are having a hard time finding people with the skills they need. I do for them what they can not find in the open market at a premium. I pick and choose my jobs and keep raising my rate and I have more work than I want. The company I worked for had an open position when I quit and then opened my position. In the +12 months since I left they have only been able to find one person who was somewhat qualified and they ended up letting them go after 3 months. One of my best friends switched jobs a few months back and was offered the job on the spot plus was offered higher than market because the interviewer told him that in 6 months he was the first person he had interviewed he would even consider hiring. I live in southern California, orange county area and I know a lot of people in the business and I constantly here from them how frustrated they are when it comes to finding qualified people. I have interviewed dozens of people for iSeries jobs over the years, and you ask them questions about networking, SSL, journaling, commitment control, writing secure applications, how to create test scripts, and they will often not even know the basic concepts - and these are people who claim to have years of experience.

I don't know who gets the h-1b money, and I don't worry about it. The last timed I payed for training I knew more than the trainer. I train myself using the free resources on the internet or sometimes I purchase a reference book and I put the time in to understand the concepts. Lots of time I learn on the job, just today someone asked me if I could put together an active directory script to make some user account changes. I have never written an AD script in my life, I am an iSeries guy but I understand the concepts, I went to the internet to free resources and found the information I needed, created a test plan, put the script together, tested it, documented it and at the end of the day I had a very happy client and I was happy - I got payed to learn today.

I don't want anyone to lose there job, and I am sure it is even more frustrating when you get outsourced, but I believe we all need to plan to someday lose our job. So I make sure I keep current, I network with people, I have my rainy day + perfect time for a vacation fund and I believe new challenges are a great thing.

Shadrach Scott

Cindy Howard wrote:

*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list!
*** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
*** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this

list.

I'm sorry to interrupt here, and I don't know if what you are saying about

the grant is true or not, but the problem isn't that we don't have educated,
trained IT professionals available in the US. There are plenty of educated,
trained, AND experienced people available to fill the jobs.

Cindy> From: pvinodr@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Date:

Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:42:39 -0500> Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Dissed-belief>

*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list!>

*** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL> ***
Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this list.>

Not sure if I understood the response to the info wrong or others have

worngly inferred the award.> "H-1B HIGH GROWTH JOB TRAINING GRANTS"> I'm not
for or against H1B...being a beneficiary of this...:-)> Now, coming to the
grants...the money is collected from employers who employ H1B & then this is
disbursed to encourage IT education/Job training in US.> > Rgds,Vinod >
From: AlexMRPG@xxxxxxx> To: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx; jmurfitt@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:00:12 -0500> Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS]
Dissed-belief> > *** Please pay close attention when replying to a message
on this list!> *** If you want the reply to go to the list, use
REPLY-TO-ALL> *** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment
positions in this list.> > > I was just looking for a government grant for a
first time business possibly a consulting company, when I came across this.
A Federally funded government grant encouraging hiring of H1B's this was
just a small excerpt of what they consider accomplishments with what is
called "High Growth Job Training Initiative"! > > ----- Original Message
-----> > > > From: Joe Murfitt<mailto:jmurfitt@xxxxxxxxxx> > To: 'Alex
Montalvo'<mailto:alexmrpg@xxxxxxx> ;
midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent:
Saturday, November 24, 2007 7:25 PM> Subject: RE: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] (no subje>
ct)> > > This is exactly why I'm looking into getting out of the IT
profession.> > > H-1B HIGH GROWTH JOB TRAINING GRANTS > > PROGRAM
ACCOMPLISHMENTS > As of March 2006, 131 grants worth over $258 million have
been awarded> under the High Growth Job Training Initiative. Between July 1,
2005 and> March 30, 2006 over $54 million in H-1B funds have been awarded
under the> High Growth Job Training Initiative. During 2006, competitions
are expected> for talent development investments in the advanced
manufacturing,> construction, and energy under the President's High Growth
Job Training> Initiative. Under the WIRED Initiative, ETA has awarded $195
million in> grants lasting three years to thirteen regions. An additional
competition> under the WIRED Initiative was announced in February 2006 > --

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