For those who haven't been subject to constant short contracts and early
releases every time the market hiccups it's easy to judge someone else.
Face bankrupcy while answering ad's from companies sponsoring h1b's
blatently, lawyers all to happy advocate the same and none defending your
cause and see if you come away unjaded pal!
Alex Montalvo
AS/400 Consultant
1(917)442-5450 Cell
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael Ryan" <michaelrtr@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "Alex Montalvo" <alexmrpg@xxxxxxx>
CC: sjl_abc@xxxxxxxxxxx, cpf0000@xxxxxxxxxxxx,
midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Fw: H-1B/offshoring debate at UCLA
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 11:10:51 -0500
>Wow...quite the venomous diatribe. You made your point succinctly. I'm
>sure that anyone who reads this can understand you, your employment
>issue and your belief system.
>
>On Nov 8, 2007 11:03 AM, Alex Montalvo <alexmrpg@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> > *** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this
list!
> > *** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
> > *** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in
this list.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I am a such a forty something coder who has been given my walking
papers
> > again from a Jewish owned textile company after 2 months three
H1b
> > consultants from India have been here for 7 + months are staying!
The
> > consulting company from India hired me for this all just so the
> > permanently employed staff can take thier vacations and now that
they are
> > done so was I. Had to wait 30 days for my first pay check from
India to
> > get here and wait another five day's for it to clear all that and
still
> > get left out. This is the fourth time I have been subject to
this. I am
> > so sick of this senario. who the hell do I have to sue to get
this ____ to
> > stop?
> >
> >
> > There is a underlying agenda it has been the case since the
Reagan era and
> > the undermining of labor unions, The corporate and political
powers that
> > be are turning a free market society into a kingdom without a
king! Well
> > there is one, consisting of many crowns(companies) and many
horns(Crooked
> > politicians and lawmakers & authorities) and many
eyes(surveillance)
> > Hmmmm! where have I heard that before? No I am not a religious
fanatic but
> > the simularites were just too obvieous to ignore.
> >
> > Alex Montalvo
> > AS/400 Consultant
> > 1(917)442-5450 Cell
> >
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > From: "SJL" <sjl_abc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <cpf0000@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, <midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Fw: H-1B/offshoring debate at UCLA
> > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 08:08:32 -0600
> > >*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on
this list!
> > >*** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
> > >*** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment
positions in
> > this list.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >All -
> > >
> > >Dr. Norman Matloff is a professor of computer science at
UC-Davis,
> > >and is one of the leaders in the fight to keep technical jobs
in this
> > >country - and employ _Americans_ in those jobs...
> > >
> > >His opinion (based on much analysis of salary trends in our
> > >business over the last 7 years) is that companies use H-1B
workers
> > >primarily for cheap labor.
> > >
> > >In this debate, Ravi Aron confirms this fact. During the
debate,
> > >globalist Ravi says (see full text in story below):
> > >
> > ><snip>
> > >
> > >Aron: If you're willing to pay enough, supply will meet
demand.
> > >
> > >Let me add:
> > >You should not pay that much.
> > >
> > >The idea that there exists an exalted class of
> > >[computer] aristocracy that should be pampered with the
salaries
> > >of their desired level is baloney. We did not do this with
> > >agricultural or steel workers or bank tellers.
> > >
> > ></snip>
> > >
> > >
> > >- Steve
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Norm Matloff" <matloff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >To: "Norm Matloff" <matloff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 12:42 AM
> > >Subject: H-1B/offshoring debate at UCLA
> > >
> > >
> > >To: H-1B/L-1/offshoring e-newsletter
> > >
> > >On October 23, IS Associates, an industry affiliates program
in the
> > >UCLA Anderson School of Management, held a panel discussion on
the
> > >future of U.S. IT professionals, given the rise of H-1B and
offshoring.
> > >
> > >This is one of the few panel discussions I've ever
participated in that
> > >gave everyone a chance to speak in full. Instead of the usual
one
> > hour,
> > >we actually had three hours (including a break and a Q&A
period) in
> > >which to thoroughly debate the issues. That sounds like
hardship for
> > >both speakers and audience alike, but but the debate was quite
lively
> > >and the audience seemed quite engaged.
> > >
> > >Enclosed below is a blog report on the event by Don Tennant,
who is
> > >editor of Computerworld and served as the moderator of the
event. He
> > >posed some excellent questions, and included a couple of small
excerpts
> > >of the ensuing discussion in his blog.
> > >
> > >Though Don is correct in stating that much of the debate
consisted of
> > >exchanges between Prof. Ravi Aron and me, it's important to
point out
> > >that there were two other panelists, Jesus Arriaga, Interim
CIO of
> > >Bosley Medical, Inc. and Mitch Stern, Director Human Capital,
Deloitte
> > >Consulting. Mr. Stern, an HR expert, did have quite a bit to
say, and
> > >Mr. Arriaga made some interesting comments as well.
> > >
> > >As you will see in his remarks below, Prof. Aron takes the
libertarian
> > >point of view. He admits that the H-1B program is used for
cheap labor
> > >rather than for remedying a labor shortage, and over lunch
before the
> > >event he also admitted that the H-1Bs are mainly brought in so
that
> > >employers can avoid hiring older, i.e. 40+, Americans; indeed,
he
> > >brought this up before I did. (He also mentioned that to prep
for the
> > >debate, he talked to his former colleague at Wharton, Peter
Cappelli,
> > >whose writings on the non-shortage of labor I've often
quoted.) He put
> > >forth the usual argument, spoken with religious fervor and
mathematical
> > >certainty, that purely laissez faire economic policies make
the world
> > >better.
> > >
> > >For my part, I stated that I respect the libertarians because
at least
> > >they are honest about issues like this. However, I also
stated that I
> > >believe most people (including those in the audience) aren't
> > >libertarians. My willingness to participate in forums such as
this is
> > >motivated mainly by a desire to get the facts out in the open;
then
> > each
> > >listener can apply his own political/economic philosophy to
forming his
> > >stance on the issues.
> > >
> > >The nature of the audience, consisting of CIOs, IT managers,
IT
> > >entrepreneurs and the like, made for quite a different type of
> > >discussion than one usually finds in these forums. They KNOW
these
> > >issues. This is the first such forum I've seen in which NO
ONE (if I
> > >remember correctly) challenged my point that H-1B is about
cheap labor
> > >and replacement of older workers. Even Stern and Arriaga,
both of whom
> > >strongly asserted a tech labor shortage, did not dispute these
points,
> > >and as mentioned, Aron did not dispute them either.
> > >
> > >One thing that got a big laugh and repeated references in the
> > subsequent
> > >discussion was that I said, "Paraphrasing Shakepeare, I say
`First
> > thing
> > >we do is kill all the HR people.'" :-) After the event,
several people
> > >told me some of their own favorite horror HR stories. HR
people tend
> > to
> > >be zealous gatekeepers, a major obstacle to good
hiring. Stern, a very
> > >personable guy, took it good naturedly.
> > >
> > >Aron was personable too. Though the discussion got a bit
heated at
> > >times (even with plenty of time to get my points across, I am
irritated
> > >when offered false choices such as "Who would you rather
believe on
> > >H-1B, Paul Krugman or Charless Grassley?"), I look forward to
another
> > >pleasant chat with him when we bump into each other again.
> > >
> > >Yet it's clear that Ravi and I are poles apart in, literally,
our views
> > >of the world. It's not just ideology, but also a sense of
> > >nationality--or lack of one, as the case may be. I get the
impression
> > >that Ravi is a member of a growing class of immigrants to the
U.S. who
> > >consider themselves transnationals, not tied to any particular
country.
> > >Just as many big firms view themselves as multinational (and,
according
> > >to Harvard economist Richard Freeman, even his university
thinks of
> > >itself as multinational), there are now many individuals who
have a
> > >multinational mentality too. The trend has been noticeable
enough for
> > >UC Berkeley anthropologist Aihwa Ong to write a book on it,
titled
> > >Flexible Citizenship.
> > >
> > >Before coming to the U.S. for study and later work, Ravi was a
> > >consultant in Malaysia, and for a while ran a software firm in
his
> > >native India. It wouldn't surprise me if Ravi's next job were
to be in
> > >the UK or China, say. This has to color his views of
offshoring and
> > >H-1B.
> > >
> > >His stance on those issues is also presumably impacted by his
outside
> > >consulting work on offshoring, which I'm told has been quite
lucrative
> > >for him. (Speaking of which, one of the people writing
comments on Don
> > >Tennant's blog asserted that I have a "vested interest"
against H-1B;
> > >but it ought to be clear that the status of the H-1B program
has no
> > >substantial impact on me one way or the other.)
> > >
> > >By the way, I posited three points that I thought everyone
could agree
> > >on as to the desirability/necessity of keeping a major
fraction of this
> > >profession American. Two are in Don's excerpt below--military
work and
> > >the need for innovation. The third one was the point that
whether we
> > >think the importation of foreign programmers and engineers is
good or
> > >not, they're not going to keep coming here in the
future. Tech careers
> > >in the U.S. are becoming less attractive, due to stagnant
wages and a
> > >roller coaster job market, while jobs in India and China are
on the
> > >upswing. Even Mitch Stern, the HR expert, seemed very
concerned when I
> > >mentioned this. Yet Ravi dismissed it, saying that we (he may
have
> > said
> > >"you") can grow this labor force internally if things come to
that.
> > >Mitch replied, no, this is not a feasible solution, as it an
economy
> > >takes many years to make such adjustments.
> > >
> > >In a somewhat comic twist (whether deliberate or unwitting),
all of us
> > >speakers were presented with special clocks, with a map of the
world
> > and
> > >24 time zones, perfect for the globalist future. :-) I did
notice,
> > >though, that in order to see the U.S. one needs to hold the
clock
> > upside
> > >down. :-)
> > >
> > >Norm
> > >
> > >
http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6482
> > >
> > >Matloff vs. Aron on the loss of U.S. IT jobs to non-U.S.
workers
> > >
> > >By Don Tennant on Mon, 11/05/2007 - 11:39am
> > >
> > >A couple of weeks ago I moderated a panel discussion at the
fall
> > meeting of
> > >the UCLA Anderson School of Management IS Associates. The
topic of
> > >discussion was the future of U.S. IT professionals in a global
market,
> > and
> > >we focused on offshore outsourcing and the H-1B visa
controversy.
> > >
> > >Much of the discussion took the form of a debate between
Professor
> > Norman
> > >Matloff of the University of California at Davis, a long-time
vocal
> > critic
> > >of the H-1B visa program; and Professor Ravi Aron of the
University of
> > >Southern California Marshall School of Business, an authority
on
> > offshore
> > >outsourcing.
> > >
> > >The following is an exchange between Matloff and Aron, edited
for
> > clarity
> > >and brevity. It began with Matloff's response to my first
question:
> > >
> > >Is the premise that there is a shortage of IT workers in the
U.S. fact
> > or
> > >fiction?
> > >
> > >Matloff: You can look at it in terms of salaries a** they're
not going
> > up.
> > >There was a Business Week study that found that starting
salaries for
> > >computer science and electrical engineering graduates,
adjusting for
> > >inflation, are on the downswing. There is no study, other than
those
> > made by
> > >the industry, that has established a shortage, even during the
dot-com
> > boom.
> > >The problem is that people are not willing to hire who's out
there, and
> > >largely it's a matter of money. That, in turn, becomes a
matter of age
> > a**
> > >older people cost more. They cost more in salary, they cost
more in
> > >benefits. The whole thing about [there being a shortage
because of]
> > baby
> > >boomers retiring is kind of ludicrous, because almost nobody
gets to
> > >retirement age in this business. After you reach age 40 or
even age 35,
> > you
> > >find yourself becoming less employable. I'm talking about my
specialty,
> > >which is software development, so everything I said holds to
that
> > group. HR
> > >doesn't know what to do with that mountain of applications.
They vet
> > people
> > >out, and the age issue is central a** it's a way to filter out
the
> > older
> > >people. Eminently qualified people can't even get an
interview. It
> > amounts
> > >to legalized age discrimination.
> > >
> > >Aron: If you're willing to pay enough, supply will meet
demand. Let me
> > add:
> > >You should not pay that much. The idea that there exists an
exalted
> > class of
> > >[computer] aristocracy that should be pampered with the
salaries of
> > their
> > >desired level is baloney. We did not do this with agricultural
or steel
> > >workers or bank tellers. There is absolutely no reason
whatsoever for
> > >someone coming into this occupation to feel entitled to an
$85,000
> > salary
> > >and a bonus. If I can't get it, I find another occupation. The
road to
> > China
> > >winds through entitlement. No IT worker, now or in the future,
can have
> > an
> > >entitlement that says, "I have the right to bypass the salary
level set
> > by
> > >the market because in some way I'm critical to the future of
the United
> > >States." Let the market decide that number. If you find that
number
> > >unacceptable, there are plenty of other things to do.
> > >
> > >How important is it to change the perception among young
people that an
> > IT
> > >job isn't worth pursuing because offshoring and H-1B visas are
making
> > those
> > >jobs too difficult to attain?
> > >
> > >Matloff: You have to ask if this profession is important to us
as a
> > nation,
> > >as an economy, as a society. There are some real issues there.
There's
> > an
> > >obvious one: the military, which is very dependent on
technology. We
> > don't
> > >want to offshore that. Regardless of what you think of the
war, you
> > >obviously don't offshore that kind of stuff. On the other
hand, you
> > can't
> > >say, "We're going to produce just enough [IT talent] for the
military."
> > It
> > >doesn't work that way. You have to have a critical mass.
Innovation is
> > >supposed to be our forte in the United States. There's a lot
of stuff
> > that
> > >we don't do well as a society, but we are creative. And if we
offshore
> > that
> > >to a place where, on average, people are less creative, we're
going to
> > have
> > >less innovation and we've lost our comparative advantage. So
it's a
> > negative
> > >for us as a country, and it's a negative for the business
community.
> > >
> > >Aron: Is the concern that these people might go be a lawyer or
an MBA?
> > So go
> > >be a lawyer or an MBA. What's the big deal? If you can find a
good MBA
> > >program that will take you, go and be an MBA. You will do
useful work;
> > you
> > >will add to the wealth and efficiency of the corporation. The
military
> > needs
> > >steel. They need mechanical engineers, metallurgical
scientists, all of
> > >which can be offshored. Have we lost our innovation? Today,
the gap
> > between
> > >the United States and the rest of the world in terms of
value-bearing
> > >patents a** patents that actually make money a** is
increasing, not
> > decreasing.
> > >Who are America's chief competitors? Germany and Japan, not
the
> > low-cost
> > >manufacturing economies of China and India. Design and
innovate in
> > America;
> > >develop and deliver in the CPI countries [China, the
Philippines and
> > India].
> > >That is the formula for making money and staying innovative.
Not
> > protected
> > >by America, for Americans. If people want to leave [the IT
profession]
> > and
> > >go become lawyers, let them become lawyers. Nothing will stop
them from
> > >being innovative, creative, and adding to the wealth of this
country.
> > >
> > >Why not recognize a good thing when you see it? Why do people
have to
> > go
> > >through these [H-1B] procedures? Why have procedures that
[cause people
> > to
> > >look for] painful ways of skirting them? Why don't they simply
say, "If
> > >you've got a Masters degree and Goldman Sachs wants to employ
you, come
> > on
> > >over?" If they're good enough for Goldman Sachs, they're good
enough
> > for the
> > >Unites States.
> > >
> > >Matloff: The implicit theme of your argument is that these
engineers
> > and
> > >programmers are smart people, and we need more smart people.
Well first
> > >of all, they're not necessarily all that smart a** anybody
here who's
> > been
> > >an IT manager knows that. They've been burned many times. No.
2, and
> > >much more importantly, is the issue that that influx is
causing an
> > >internal brain drain. Innovative people are leaving the field,
and I
> > >know many, many cases of that. I don't think anyone, including
Ravi ,
> > is
> > >going to say it's a good thing when you have bright people not
going
> > >into something where they really have talent. They're going
into
> > >something that they don't like and where maybe they don't have
talent.
> > >Let them become a lawyer? Well, maybe they're not going to be
as good a
> > >lawyer as they would have been a software engineer.
> > >
> > >Aron: I'm not at all saying that you should bring these people
in
> > because
> > >they're smart. I couldn't care less whether they're smart or
not. If
> > they
> > >are pumpkin farmers, and it turns out there's an economic
viability and
> > they
> > >can find a market for it and they can make money, I say bring
them in.
> > I am
> > >completely agnostic about their intellectual prowess. And if
people
> > become
> > >lawyers and they find they're not very good at it, fine a**
find
> > something
> > >else to do. As I discovered when I was 18 years old that it
was not
> > likely I
> > >was going to make it in a career as a rock guitarist, you will
discover
> > that
> > >there are other things to do.
> > >
> > >Will it mean that some people will not go into IT as a career?
> > Absolutely.
> > >So what? Will it mean that some talented, bright folks will
move from
> > IT
> > >into financial services as they're now doing? Yeah, of course.
So what?
> > That
> > >is the strength of the U.S.: Constantly reallocate people and
talent
> > where
> > >it is most rewarded. We do not want to be North Korea.
> > >
> > >Can we do without the H1-B program? If you're willing to pay
enough,
> > >certainly. I don't think that's a good idea. Can America's
driving
> > needs be
> > >met without Japanese cars? Of course. Can our photographic
needs be met
> > >without Japanese cameras? Without doubt. But the consequences
would be
> > >catastrophic. For sure, we can do without H1-B. For sure, we
can do
> > without
> > >Japanese cars.
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion
(MIDRANGE-JOBS)
> > mailing list
> > >To post a message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
> > >visit:
http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs
> > >or email: MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >Don't forget to check the midrange.com jobs board at
> >
http://jobs.midrange.com
> > --
> > This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS)
mailing list
> > To post a message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
> > visit:
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