I am sorry I am the only one that's why there aren't any websites and news
shows that speak on this all the time. Did they cancel the Daily show or
Real time? Oh that's right they haven't.
Alex Montalvo
AS/400 Consultant
1(917)442-5450 Cell
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ketzes, Larry" <Larry.Ketzes@xxxxxxx>
To: Michael Ryan <michaelrtr@xxxxxxxxx>, Alex Montalvo
<alexmrpg@xxxxxxx>
CC: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx, cpf0000@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Fw: H-1B/offshoring debate at UCLA
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 11:59:05 -0600
>After reading this, I'm not surprised at all of your employment
challenges.
>
>Larry Ketzes | Senior iSeries System Administrator | AIG / ALICO -
American
>Life Insurance Company
>One ALICO Plaza, 600 N. King Street, AMIS | Wilmington, DE 19801 | *:
>302.594.2146 | 7: 302.830.4524| *: larry.ketzes@xxxxxxx
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: midrange-jobs-bounces+larry.ketzes=aig.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:midrange-jobs-bounces+larry.ketzes=aig.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
>Of Michael Ryan
>Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 11:11 AM
>To: Alex Montalvo
>Cc: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx; cpf0000@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Fw: H-1B/offshoring debate at UCLA
>
>*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list!
>*** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
>*** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in
this
>list.
>
>
>Wow...quite the venomous diatribe. You made your point succinctly. I'm
>sure that anyone who reads this can understand you, your employment
>issue and your belief system.
>
>On Nov 8, 2007 11:03 AM, Alex Montalvo <alexmrpg@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> > *** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this
list!
> > *** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
> > *** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in
this
>list.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I am a such a forty something coder who has been given my walking
>papers
> > again from a Jewish owned textile company after 2 months three
H1b
> > consultants from India have been here for 7 + months are staying!
The
> > consulting company from India hired me for this all just so the
> > permanently employed staff can take thier vacations and now that
they
>are
> > done so was I. Had to wait 30 days for my first pay check from
India to
> > get here and wait another five day's for it to clear all that and
still
> > get left out. This is the fourth time I have been subject to
this. I
>am
> > so sick of this senario. who the hell do I have to sue to get
this ____
>to
> > stop?
> >
> >
> > There is a underlying agenda it has been the case since the
Reagan era
>and
> > the undermining of labor unions, The corporate and political
powers
>that
> > be are turning a free market society into a kingdom without a
king!
>Well
> > there is one, consisting of many crowns(companies) and many
>horns(Crooked
> > politicians and lawmakers & authorities) and many
eyes(surveillance)
> > Hmmmm! where have I heard that before? No I am not a religious
fanatic
>but
> > the simularites were just too obvieous to ignore.
> >
> > Alex Montalvo
> > AS/400 Consultant
> > 1(917)442-5450 Cell
> >
> >
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > From: "SJL" <sjl_abc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <cpf0000@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, <midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: [MIDRANGE-JOBS] Fw: H-1B/offshoring debate at UCLA
> > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 08:08:32 -0600
> > >*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on
this
>list!
> > >*** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
> > >*** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment
positions in
> > this list.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >All -
> > >
> > >Dr. Norman Matloff is a professor of computer science at
UC-Davis,
> > >and is one of the leaders in the fight to keep technical jobs
in
>this
> > >country - and employ _Americans_ in those jobs...
> > >
> > >His opinion (based on much analysis of salary trends in our
> > >business over the last 7 years) is that companies use H-1B
workers
> > >primarily for cheap labor.
> > >
> > >In this debate, Ravi Aron confirms this fact. During the
debate,
> > >globalist Ravi says (see full text in story below):
> > >
> > ><snip>
> > >
> > >Aron: If you're willing to pay enough, supply will meet
demand.
> > >
> > >Let me add:
> > >You should not pay that much.
> > >
> > >The idea that there exists an exalted class of
> > >[computer] aristocracy that should be pampered with the
salaries
> > >of their desired level is baloney. We did not do this with
> > >agricultural or steel workers or bank tellers.
> > >
> > ></snip>
> > >
> > >
> > >- Steve
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Norm Matloff" <matloff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >To: "Norm Matloff" <matloff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 12:42 AM
> > >Subject: H-1B/offshoring debate at UCLA
> > >
> > >
> > >To: H-1B/L-1/offshoring e-newsletter
> > >
> > >On October 23, IS Associates, an industry affiliates program
in the
> > >UCLA Anderson School of Management, held a panel discussion on
the
> > >future of U.S. IT professionals, given the rise of H-1B and
>offshoring.
> > >
> > >This is one of the few panel discussions I've ever
participated in
>that
> > >gave everyone a chance to speak in full. Instead of the usual
one
> > hour,
> > >we actually had three hours (including a break and a Q&A
period) in
> > >which to thoroughly debate the issues. That sounds like
hardship
>for
> > >both speakers and audience alike, but but the debate was quite
>lively
> > >and the audience seemed quite engaged.
> > >
> > >Enclosed below is a blog report on the event by Don Tennant,
who is
> > >editor of Computerworld and served as the moderator of the
event.
>He
> > >posed some excellent questions, and included a couple of small
>excerpts
> > >of the ensuing discussion in his blog.
> > >
> > >Though Don is correct in stating that much of the debate
consisted
>of
> > >exchanges between Prof. Ravi Aron and me, it's important to
point
>out
> > >that there were two other panelists, Jesus Arriaga, Interim
CIO of
> > >Bosley Medical, Inc. and Mitch Stern, Director Human Capital,
>Deloitte
> > >Consulting. Mr. Stern, an HR expert, did have quite a bit to
say,
>and
> > >Mr. Arriaga made some interesting comments as well.
> > >
> > >As you will see in his remarks below, Prof. Aron takes the
>libertarian
> > >point of view. He admits that the H-1B program is used for
cheap
>labor
> > >rather than for remedying a labor shortage, and over lunch
before
>the
> > >event he also admitted that the H-1Bs are mainly brought in so
that
> > >employers can avoid hiring older, i.e. 40+, Americans; indeed,
he
> > >brought this up before I did. (He also mentioned that to prep
for
>the
> > >debate, he talked to his former colleague at Wharton, Peter
>Cappelli,
> > >whose writings on the non-shortage of labor I've often
quoted.) He
>put
> > >forth the usual argument, spoken with religious fervor and
>mathematical
> > >certainty, that purely laissez faire economic policies make
the
>world
> > >better.
> > >
> > >For my part, I stated that I respect the libertarians because
at
>least
> > >they are honest about issues like this. However, I also
stated that
>I
> > >believe most people (including those in the audience) aren't
> > >libertarians. My willingness to participate in forums such as
this
>is
> > >motivated mainly by a desire to get the facts out in the open;
then
> > each
> > >listener can apply his own political/economic philosophy to
forming
>his
> > >stance on the issues.
> > >
> > >The nature of the audience, consisting of CIOs, IT managers,
IT
> > >entrepreneurs and the like, made for quite a different type of
> > >discussion than one usually finds in these forums. They KNOW
these
> > >issues. This is the first such forum I've seen in which NO
ONE (if
>I
> > >remember correctly) challenged my point that H-1B is about
cheap
>labor
> > >and replacement of older workers. Even Stern and Arriaga,
both of
>whom
> > >strongly asserted a tech labor shortage, did not dispute these
>points,
> > >and as mentioned, Aron did not dispute them either.
> > >
> > >One thing that got a big laugh and repeated references in the
> > subsequent
> > >discussion was that I said, "Paraphrasing Shakepeare, I say
`First
> > thing
> > >we do is kill all the HR people.'" :-) After the event,
several
>people
> > >told me some of their own favorite horror HR stories. HR
people
>tend
> > to
> > >be zealous gatekeepers, a major obstacle to good
hiring. Stern, a
>very
> > >personable guy, took it good naturedly.
> > >
> > >Aron was personable too. Though the discussion got a bit
heated at
> > >times (even with plenty of time to get my points across, I am
>irritated
> > >when offered false choices such as "Who would you rather
believe on
> > >H-1B, Paul Krugman or Charless Grassley?"), I look forward to
>another
> > >pleasant chat with him when we bump into each other again.
> > >
> > >Yet it's clear that Ravi and I are poles apart in, literally,
our
>views
> > >of the world. It's not just ideology, but also a sense of
> > >nationality--or lack of one, as the case may be. I get the
>impression
> > >that Ravi is a member of a growing class of immigrants to the
U.S.
>who
> > >consider themselves transnationals, not tied to any particular
>country.
> > >Just as many big firms view themselves as multinational (and,
>according
> > >to Harvard economist Richard Freeman, even his university
thinks of
> > >itself as multinational), there are now many individuals who
have a
> > >multinational mentality too. The trend has been noticeable
enough
>for
> > >UC Berkeley anthropologist Aihwa Ong to write a book on it,
titled
> > >Flexible Citizenship.
> > >
> > >Before coming to the U.S. for study and later work, Ravi was a
> > >consultant in Malaysia, and for a while ran a software firm in
his
> > >native India. It wouldn't surprise me if Ravi's next job were
to be
>in
> > >the UK or China, say. This has to color his views of
offshoring and
> > >H-1B.
> > >
> > >His stance on those issues is also presumably impacted by his
>outside
> > >consulting work on offshoring, which I'm told has been quite
>lucrative
> > >for him. (Speaking of which, one of the people writing
comments on
>Don
> > >Tennant's blog asserted that I have a "vested interest"
against
>H-1B;
> > >but it ought to be clear that the status of the H-1B program
has no
> > >substantial impact on me one way or the other.)
> > >
> > >By the way, I posited three points that I thought everyone
could
>agree
> > >on as to the desirability/necessity of keeping a major
fraction of
>this
> > >profession American. Two are in Don's excerpt below--military
work
>and
> > >the need for innovation. The third one was the point that
whether
>we
> > >think the importation of foreign programmers and engineers is
good
>or
> > >not, they're not going to keep coming here in the
future. Tech
>careers
> > >in the U.S. are becoming less attractive, due to stagnant
wages and
>a
> > >roller coaster job market, while jobs in India and China are
on the
> > >upswing. Even Mitch Stern, the HR expert, seemed very
concerned
>when I
> > >mentioned this. Yet Ravi dismissed it, saying that we (he may
have
> > said
> > >"you") can grow this labor force internally if things come to
that.
> > >Mitch replied, no, this is not a feasible solution, as it an
economy
> > >takes many years to make such adjustments.
> > >
> > >In a somewhat comic twist (whether deliberate or unwitting),
all of
>us
> > >speakers were presented with special clocks, with a map of the
world
> > and
> > >24 time zones, perfect for the globalist future. :-) I did
notice,
> > >though, that in order to see the U.S. one needs to hold the
clock
> > upside
> > >down. :-)
> > >
> > >Norm
> > >
> > >
http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6482
> > >
> > >Matloff vs. Aron on the loss of U.S. IT jobs to non-U.S.
workers
> > >
> > >By Don Tennant on Mon, 11/05/2007 - 11:39am
> > >
> > >A couple of weeks ago I moderated a panel discussion at the
fall
> > meeting of
> > >the UCLA Anderson School of Management IS Associates. The
topic of
> > >discussion was the future of U.S. IT professionals in a global
>market,
> > and
> > >we focused on offshore outsourcing and the H-1B visa
controversy.
> > >
> > >Much of the discussion took the form of a debate between
Professor
> > Norman
> > >Matloff of the University of California at Davis, a long-time
vocal
> > critic
> > >of the H-1B visa program; and Professor Ravi Aron of the
University
>of
> > >Southern California Marshall School of Business, an authority
on
> > offshore
> > >outsourcing.
> > >
> > >The following is an exchange between Matloff and Aron, edited
for
> > clarity
> > >and brevity. It began with Matloff's response to my first
question:
> > >
> > >Is the premise that there is a shortage of IT workers in the
U.S.
>fact
> > or
> > >fiction?
> > >
> > >Matloff: You can look at it in terms of salaries a** they're
not
>going
> > up.
> > >There was a Business Week study that found that starting
salaries
>for
> > >computer science and electrical engineering graduates,
adjusting for
> > >inflation, are on the downswing. There is no study, other than
those
> > made by
> > >the industry, that has established a shortage, even during the
>dot-com
> > boom.
> > >The problem is that people are not willing to hire who's out
there,
>and
> > >largely it's a matter of money. That, in turn, becomes a
matter of
>age
> > a**
> > >older people cost more. They cost more in salary, they cost
more in
> > >benefits. The whole thing about [there being a shortage
because of]
> > baby
> > >boomers retiring is kind of ludicrous, because almost nobody
gets to
> > >retirement age in this business. After you reach age 40 or
even age
>35,
> > you
> > >find yourself becoming less employable. I'm talking about my
>specialty,
> > >which is software development, so everything I said holds to
that
> > group. HR
> > >doesn't know what to do with that mountain of applications.
They vet
> > people
> > >out, and the age issue is central a** it's a way to filter out
the
> > older
> > >people. Eminently qualified people can't even get an
interview. It
> > amounts
> > >to legalized age discrimination.
> > >
> > >Aron: If you're willing to pay enough, supply will meet
demand. Let
>me
> > add:
> > >You should not pay that much. The idea that there exists an
exalted
> > class of
> > >[computer] aristocracy that should be pampered with the
salaries of
> > their
> > >desired level is baloney. We did not do this with agricultural
or
>steel
> > >workers or bank tellers. There is absolutely no reason
whatsoever
>for
> > >someone coming into this occupation to feel entitled to an
$85,000
> > salary
> > >and a bonus. If I can't get it, I find another occupation. The
road
>to
> > China
> > >winds through entitlement. No IT worker, now or in the future,
can
>have
> > an
> > >entitlement that says, "I have the right to bypass the salary
level
>set
> > by
> > >the market because in some way I'm critical to the future of
the
>United
> > >States." Let the market decide that number. If you find that
number
> > >unacceptable, there are plenty of other things to do.
> > >
> > >How important is it to change the perception among young
people that
>an
> > IT
> > >job isn't worth pursuing because offshoring and H-1B visas are
>making
> > those
> > >jobs too difficult to attain?
> > >
> > >Matloff: You have to ask if this profession is important to us
as a
> > nation,
> > >as an economy, as a society. There are some real issues there.
>There's
> > an
> > >obvious one: the military, which is very dependent on
technology. We
> > don't
> > >want to offshore that. Regardless of what you think of the
war, you
> > >obviously don't offshore that kind of stuff. On the other
hand, you
> > can't
> > >say, "We're going to produce just enough [IT talent] for the
>military."
> > It
> > >doesn't work that way. You have to have a critical mass.
Innovation
>is
> > >supposed to be our forte in the United States. There's a lot
of
>stuff
> > that
> > >we don't do well as a society, but we are creative. And if we
>offshore
> > that
> > >to a place where, on average, people are less creative, we're
going
>to
> > have
> > >less innovation and we've lost our comparative advantage. So
it's a
> > negative
> > >for us as a country, and it's a negative for the business
community.
> > >
> > >Aron: Is the concern that these people might go be a lawyer or
an
>MBA?
> > So go
> > >be a lawyer or an MBA. What's the big deal? If you can find a
good
>MBA
> > >program that will take you, go and be an MBA. You will do
useful
>work;
> > you
> > >will add to the wealth and efficiency of the corporation. The
>military
> > needs
> > >steel. They need mechanical engineers, metallurgical
scientists, all
>of
> > >which can be offshored. Have we lost our innovation? Today,
the gap
> > between
> > >the United States and the rest of the world in terms of
>value-bearing
> > >patents a** patents that actually make money a** is
increasing, not
> > decreasing.
> > >Who are America's chief competitors? Germany and Japan, not
the
> > low-cost
> > >manufacturing economies of China and India. Design and
innovate in
> > America;
> > >develop and deliver in the CPI countries [China, the
Philippines and
> > India].
> > >That is the formula for making money and staying innovative.
Not
> > protected
> > >by America, for Americans. If people want to leave [the IT
>profession]
> > and
> > >go become lawyers, let them become lawyers. Nothing will stop
them
>from
> > >being innovative, creative, and adding to the wealth of this
>country.
> > >
> > >Why not recognize a good thing when you see it? Why do people
have
>to
> > go
> > >through these [H-1B] procedures? Why have procedures that
[cause
>people
> > to
> > >look for] painful ways of skirting them? Why don't they simply
say,
>"If
> > >you've got a Masters degree and Goldman Sachs wants to employ
you,
>come
> > on
> > >over?" If they're good enough for Goldman Sachs, they're good
enough
> > for the
> > >Unites States.
> > >
> > >Matloff: The implicit theme of your argument is that these
engineers
> > and
> > >programmers are smart people, and we need more smart people.
Well
>first
> > >of all, they're not necessarily all that smart a** anybody
here
>who's
> > been
> > >an IT manager knows that. They've been burned many times. No.
2, and
> > >much more importantly, is the issue that that influx is
causing an
> > >internal brain drain. Innovative people are leaving the field,
and I
> > >know many, many cases of that. I don't think anyone, including
Ravi
>,
> > is
> > >going to say it's a good thing when you have bright people not
going
> > >into something where they really have talent. They're going
into
> > >something that they don't like and where maybe they don't have
>talent.
> > >Let them become a lawyer? Well, maybe they're not going to be
as
>good a
> > >lawyer as they would have been a software engineer.
> > >
> > >Aron: I'm not at all saying that you should bring these people
in
> > because
> > >they're smart. I couldn't care less whether they're smart or
not. If
> > they
> > >are pumpkin farmers, and it turns out there's an economic
viability
>and
> > they
> > >can find a market for it and they can make money, I say bring
them
>in.
> > I am
> > >completely agnostic about their intellectual prowess. And if
people
> > become
> > >lawyers and they find they're not very good at it, fine a**
find
> > something
> > >else to do. As I discovered when I was 18 years old that it
was not
> > likely I
> > >was going to make it in a career as a rock guitarist, you will
>discover
> > that
> > >there are other things to do.
> > >
> > >Will it mean that some people will not go into IT as a career?
> > Absolutely.
> > >So what? Will it mean that some talented, bright folks will
move
>from
> > IT
> > >into financial services as they're now doing? Yeah, of course.
So
>what?
> > That
> > >is the strength of the U.S.: Constantly reallocate people and
talent
> > where
> > >it is most rewarded. We do not want to be North Korea.
> > >
> > >Can we do without the H1-B program? If you're willing to pay
enough,
> > >certainly. I don't think that's a good idea. Can America's
driving
> > needs be
> > >met without Japanese cars? Of course. Can our photographic
needs be
>met
> > >without Japanese cameras? Without doubt. But the consequences
would
>be
> > >catastrophic. For sure, we can do without H1-B. For sure, we
can do
> > without
> > >Japanese cars.
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion
(MIDRANGE-JOBS)
> > mailing list
> > >To post a message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
> > >visit:
http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs
> > >or email: MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >Don't forget to check the midrange.com jobs board at
> >
http://jobs.midrange.com
> > --
> > This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS)
mailing
>list
> > To post a message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
> > visit:
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> > or email: MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > Don't forget to check the midrange.com jobs board at
>
http://jobs.midrange.com
> >
>--
>This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS)
mailing
>list
>To post a message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
>visit:
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>or email: MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
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>
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