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  1.  Home
  2. MIDRANGE-JOBS
  3. January 2007

RE: Jobs going away

I agree. I would have to say that I've seen more activity in VA than I did 3 or 
4 years ago when there was nothing. I chalk it up to a normal job market, when 
changing employers takes interview skills and planning, they just aren't 
jumping all over resumes like they did with Y2K. I've considered changing 
fields but not sure how to transition from being technical in IT...I've seen 
several emails from individuals saying they have switched careers, but no one 
has mentioned what they have done to gear themselves towards a new career or 
the career path they are pursuing in lieu of IT...other than project 
management. 

info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:   *** Please pay close attention when 
replying to a message on this list!
*** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
*** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this list.


Brian, I can't say I agree with that totally because my experience in the 
industry tells me something different. There are many factors involved while 
mainframe jobs may have gone away where you are located, they may be common in 
other areas like Central, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, or even Hawaii and pay 
quite well for those locations.

How soon we all forget that prior to the Y2K fever, there was actually a 
shortage of IT professionals in general. Then all of a sudden there was a rush 
of people jumping into the IT field in order to take advantage of the Y2K 
frenzy. Then right around the end of 1999 and the early part of 2000 the 
industry changed quickly.

While some shrinkage in the industry was expected due to an abundance of 
average and satisfactory IT resources, and while some have outdated skills, one 
still can't deny the negative impact of offshore outsourcing.

Sure computer technologies change and yes it's imperative to maintain current 
technical skills but even in doing so, that is not always enough.



*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list!
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Most mainframe jobs went away. 

Most As400 jobs went away about the same time or maybe slightly thereafter. 

Most .Net and/or java jobs will go away as the technology changes to
something else. Many of the current .net/java people don't believe it but
it is so. 

A manager once told me he was in the process of rewriting his legacy
systems. I assumed he was talking about his mainframe code. He was in fact
talking about his C++ windows code, which seemed so popular 10 years ago. 

The fact is that computer technologies and languages change over time. It
is VERY dangerous for ones career to 'ride out' a particular technology all
the way to the end or near the end of it's popularity (ie. AS400 today). I
was a mainframe programmer and watched my earnings get cut in 1/2 from the
height to a near inability to find work. 

I'm sure this is not a popular thing (and will probably get flamed), but it
is true. After a 20+ year career with something it is very hard to go back
and be considered 'entry level' in a new language. I personally chose
another career. 

Having h1 candidates available for AS400 work DOES affect a limited number
of Americans ability to find work in that skillset, but it is NOT the main
factor. The fact that the skillset is no longer in demand is the #1 reason.
It is that simple. It is that unfortunate. 

We are only as secure in our jobs as our knowledge of the tools that are in
demand. Tough fact in the computer business. 

Brian Whitfield

-----Original Message-----
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[mailto:midrange-jobs-bounces+bestjobs1=mindspring.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of midrange-jobs-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 11:31 PM
To: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 18

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Today's Topics:

1. RE: US Jobs (Doug Hart)
2. Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion (pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx)
3. re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion (Mark Villa)
4. RE: Midrange Jobs National Discussion (Joe Murfitt)
5. re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion (Timothy A. Grove)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

message: 1
date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:54:26 -0500
from: Doug Hart 
subject: RE: US Jobs


The culture of corporate America has completely changed from valuing their
employees (1950's) to taking a global view. It is all being driven by their
costs and the bottom line. The value added by the American skilled worker
is not in the equation. 

Ford Motor Company is laying off 50,00 - 75,000 workers. These factory
workers making $27/hr will never make those earnings again in their lives.
Many will end up working in retail at less than $10/hr. And benefits are a
thing of the past.

Hillary Clinton used NY tax dollars to help a startup consulting company in
Buffalo New York. Of the 150 new jobs created only 3 are held by US
citizens. From Albany NY West well into the Midwest states manufacturing
was the engine that grew this country, not any more.

My main client, a Fortune 300 company is investing heavily in a new plant in
China. And they are rapidly moving to outsource their large datacenters.
They already sent their application development to India. The buzz word
they use in their newsletters is 'lean operations'.

My small city in upstate NY had 3 large factories (national brands) 15 years
ago. Two have closed and the 3rd is now foreign owned. In this entire
region, once strong in manufacturing, no manufacturing growth has occurred
in years. Major employers like G.E., Carrier Air Conditioner, Kodak, Xerox
have either closed or are only a small percentage of their past size.

What I'm saying is this is not just an I.T. problem. It is not a problem of
skills in the work force. What is happening is that the economy has become
global. This means that pay rates will find an average over a much larger
base. Since we were the top of the scale we will drop the most to reach the
mean. 

We need to be careful as our standard of living is surely going to fall. We
can't afford the $350 billion we have spent on the war with no end in sight.
Remember it was not bullets that ended the Cold War, it was Russia going
bankrupt. I well remember when I was a kid, hearing about how the work week
had been reduced over the last hundred and fifty years to 40 hours. The
expectation was that it would continue to shorten. Little did anyone think
that it would be because of the lack of work. 

Government and the heads of industry must rethink about their 'long term'
investment. If they invest in America they are investing in us. I tell the
people I work with that investing in China is such a short term view. In 20
years China may well be our enemy and they will loose everything they built
there.

The bottom line is it costs less to do business else where. Yes, you get
what you pay for. One of my favorite saying is this.

Fast, Cheap, or Good
Pick ONLY Two

If you want it fast and cheap, the results will not be good. 
If you want it fast and good, it's not going to be cheap. 
And, if you want it cheap and good, it certainly won't be fast.

Lets put 'good' back into the bottom line because it's right.


Another common justification for everything is 'it's the money'. OK, so
lets spend the money here and see why we can build with it.



--
Doug Hart





------------------------------

message: 2
date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 16:20:37 -0600
from: pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx
subject: Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion

Those problems have already started surfacing. I knew a guy in California
who worked for Bank of America. The third time he had to train an Indian to
take his job, he went out to his car and ate his gun.

We have out of work programmers working at Home Depot and Wal-Mart. I know a
guy here in Chicago who lost his job 4 years ago in an iSeries shop. He went
back to school and learned the PC programming languages, and he still can't
get a job because he's competing with 20-somethings who are single. 
My friend has a family and a mortgage.

Our major problem in this workplace is the 30 to 40 something MBA's who
manage on a quarter to quarter basis rather than taking the long view.
-- 

Paul Nelson
Arbor Solutions, Inc.
708-670-6978 Cell
pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx




"Ken Shields" 
01/28/2007 11:23 AM

To




cc

Subject
Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion






Well, I think it's just financially driven, and nothing serious will happen
from a legislative point of view until some really serious societal problems
start surfacing Ken

----- Original Message -----
From: pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx
To: Ken Shields
Cc: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion


Well, duh. 

I would really be interested in learning how the culture of "palm greasing"
practiced by people of other nations has crept into these outsourcing
decisions. A lot of C level people who decide in favor of outsourcing drive
some nice cars. 
-- 

Paul Nelson
Arbor Solutions, Inc.
708-670-6978 Cell
pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx



"Ken Shields" 
01/27/2007 07:12 PM 


To


 

cc

Subject
Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion








Paul ..right on.. 
One other phenomenon I encountered 
Home spun consulting companies, a list of names you'd probably recognize, 
actively 
engaged by corporations to out-source their IT work, worth a great deal of 
money 

I sort of equate the problem to the problem of Global warming 
No government incentive until dozens of American cities are under water. 
No government incentive on out-sourcing, until cities have so many poor, 
they can't pay 
their tax roles 

They might however; reconsider out-sourcing legislation soon, when the 43 
trillion 
dollar Federal debt comes home to roost 
Any one of us have trouble counting to a million...LOL 

Do you think human greed plays a factor?.. 

Ken 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx 
To: Alex Montalvo 
Cc: Ken Shields ; midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; 
midrange-jobs-bounces+pnelson=arbsol.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx 
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 7:06 PM 
Subject: Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion 


For what it's worth, Billary's in bed with the Indians, Tata Consulting, 
for one, is a contributor to her war chest 
-- 

Paul Nelson
Arbor Solutions, Inc.
708-670-6978 Cell
pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx


"Alex Montalvo" 
Sent by: midrange-jobs-bounces+pnelson=arbsol.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx 
01/27/2007 04:15 PM 


To
"Ken Shields" , 
cc

Subject
Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion










*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list!
*** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
*** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this 
list.


There is a reason! Below is a letter emailed to some of our so called 
representatives. They did not vote at all on this.
Also companies use out sources and h1b's to justify higher budgets and for 
tax purposes. 


Thank you for using FAIR Congressional Task Force Mail System

Message sent to the following recipients:
Senator Schumer
Senator Clinton
Representative Maloney
Mr. President
Message text follows:

March 23, 2006

[recipient address was inserted here]


Dear [recipient name was inserted here],

Abolish the Guest worker Program and form legislation punishing those who 
favor cheap foreign labor instead of advocating it. I should be on my way 
to owning my first home not owning food stamps and being 13,000 in debt! I 

have been searching for a career in IT the IBM AS/400 is my field of 
expertise and I cannot string two jobs together without being out of work 
6-8 months at a time. This is what this program is doing to US and kicking 

US in the A!!!!!!

I own a car I cannot afford because all the jobs in my field aren't in NY.



I just finished a contract working for one month with a well known fashion 

designer who had H1B's contracted to work as their programmers. I was 
contracted for a 2-4 month assignment which ended in when I completed the 
work in six weeks as a result of pressure to finish quickly by the 
designer company. The company is Liz C. they have a 20 person staff 
from Pakistan called Visionxxx Systems who in turn contracted me to do a 
job for them (I am US Born and raised). Now under normal circumstances, I 
would have been hired eventually and trained in other areas of the company 

but not the budget conscious designer company. My assignment was done and 
they let me go. The Pakistani consulting company stayed. I am still out of 

work and now on P/A since I did not make enough money or time put in 
to file for unemployment!!!! THIS IS WHAT PROGRAMS LIKE THIS DO TO THE 
AMERICAN PEOPLE!!!!!!! 



Sincerely,





----- Original Message ----- 
From: Ken Shields 
To: midrange-jobs@midrange. com 
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 3:18 PM
Subject: Midrange Jobs National Discussion


*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list!
*** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
*** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this 
list.


Hi Everyone

The issue of out-sourcing is at the heart of all the lack of adequate 
employment
we're all experiencing these days.
Despite all out protestations, and letters to our congress people, the 
lobbying 
there is very powerful, and those trends continue unabated.
It really would be preferable, if there was a national limit placed on 
corporations ,
in respect to how much of their computer and administration work can go 
overseas.


Many of the Newsnet groups, and Job agency websites are responded to 
on a very
regular basis, by those same off-shore outfits, continually trying to 
scoop up what
small fragments remain in the market here.

I am a personnel recruiter, and personally spent four decades in the 
industry. 
Being a recruiter, and an ex computer professional are not mutually 
exclusive.

Twenty years in, and just about all the jobs in the market were Big 
Blue related,
but it's really a rarity today.
As previous articles to this group have shown, having 25 years 
experience ,
and excellent educational qualifications are no guarantee of finding 
work in this
slowly shrinking market segment

Keep writing letters to Congress, and don't give up the good fight

Regards
Ken Shields





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This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS) mailing 
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or email: MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx



------------------------------

message: 3
date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 11:50:58 -0500
from: "Mark Villa" 
subject: re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion


Sorry, but I find that to be the biggest bunch of bull I've heard in a
long time.

The lack of adequate employment is more based on the employees
unwillingness to learn new things than the fact that jobs have been




First, I do not think that laziness from applicants and the absence of
opportunities are the same thing, are they? So - I agree with you- we
have opportunities that Ken was not aware of!
I think Ken was speaking of volume/numbers and systemic declining
prosperity for folks in the industry he is in. Is my read on this
correct?

Now, about the laziness: Simply - your correct - everyone has seen
this. As a nation we are bloody spoiled rotten. The wake-up call is
upon us.

But is poor preperation the REASON for off-shoring - out-sourcing?


------------------------------

message: 4
date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 21:44:57 -0500
from: "Joe Murfitt" 
subject: RE: Midrange Jobs National Discussion

I got laid off five years ago as a senior programmer/analyst and just now
got a 6 month contract as a computer operator. There is nothing available.
I've also fallen behind on my skills and don't know what to do next.

-----Original Message-----
From: midrange-jobs-bounces+jmurfitt=cfl.rr.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:midrange-jobs-bounces+jmurfitt=cfl.rr.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 5:21 PM
To: Ken Shields
Cc: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion

*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list!
*** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
*** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this
list.


Those problems have already started surfacing. I knew a guy in California 
who worked for Bank of America. The third time he had to train an Indian 
to take his job, he went out to his car and ate his gun.

We have out of work programmers working at Home Depot and Wal-Mart. I know 
a guy here in Chicago who lost his job 4 years ago in an iSeries shop. He 
went back to school and learned the PC programming languages, and he still 
can't get a job because he's competing with 20-somethings who are single. 
My friend has a family and a mortgage.

Our major problem in this workplace is the 30 to 40 something MBA's who 
manage on a quarter to quarter basis rather than taking the long view.
-- 

Paul Nelson
Arbor Solutions, Inc.
708-670-6978 Cell
pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx




"Ken Shields" 
01/28/2007 11:23 AM

To




cc

Subject
Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion






Well, I think it's just financially driven, and nothing serious will 
happen from a 
legislative point of view until some really serious societal problems 
start surfacing
Ken

----- Original Message ----- 
From: pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx 
To: Ken Shields 
Cc: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx 
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion


Well, duh. 

I would really be interested in learning how the culture of "palm 
greasing" practiced by people of other nations has crept into these 
outsourcing decisions. A lot of C level people who decide in favor of 
outsourcing drive some nice cars. 
-- 

Paul Nelson
Arbor Solutions, Inc.
708-670-6978 Cell
pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx



"Ken Shields" 
01/27/2007 07:12 PM 


To


 

cc

Subject
Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion








Paul ..right on.. 
One other phenomenon I encountered 
Home spun consulting companies, a list of names you'd probably recognize, 
actively 
engaged by corporations to out-source their IT work, worth a great deal of 
money 

I sort of equate the problem to the problem of Global warming 
No government incentive until dozens of American cities are under water. 
No government incentive on out-sourcing, until cities have so many poor, 
they can't pay 
their tax roles 

They might however; reconsider out-sourcing legislation soon, when the 43 
trillion 
dollar Federal debt comes home to roost 
Any one of us have trouble counting to a million...LOL 

Do you think human greed plays a factor?.. 

Ken 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx 
To: Alex Montalvo 
Cc: Ken Shields ; midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; 
midrange-jobs-bounces+pnelson=arbsol.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx 
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 7:06 PM 
Subject: Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion 


For what it's worth, Billary's in bed with the Indians, Tata Consulting, 
for one, is a contributor to her war chest 
-- 

Paul Nelson
Arbor Solutions, Inc.
708-670-6978 Cell
pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx


"Alex Montalvo" 
Sent by: midrange-jobs-bounces+pnelson=arbsol.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx 
01/27/2007 04:15 PM 


To
"Ken Shields" , 
cc

Subject
Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion










*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list!
*** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
*** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this 
list.


There is a reason! Below is a letter emailed to some of our so called 
representatives. They did not vote at all on this.
Also companies use out sources and h1b's to justify higher budgets and for 
tax purposes. 


Thank you for using FAIR Congressional Task Force Mail System

Message sent to the following recipients:
Senator Schumer
Senator Clinton
Representative Maloney
Mr. President
Message text follows:

March 23, 2006

[recipient address was inserted here]


Dear [recipient name was inserted here],

Abolish the Guest worker Program and form legislation punishing those who 
favor cheap foreign labor instead of advocating it. I should be on my way 
to owning my first home not owning food stamps and being 13,000 in debt! I 

have been searching for a career in IT the IBM AS/400 is my field of 
expertise and I cannot string two jobs together without being out of work 
6-8 months at a time. This is what this program is doing to US and kicking 

US in the A!!!!!!

I own a car I cannot afford because all the jobs in my field aren't in NY.



I just finished a contract working for one month with a well known fashion 

designer who had H1B's contracted to work as their programmers. I was 
contracted for a 2-4 month assignment which ended in when I completed the 
work in six weeks as a result of pressure to finish quickly by the 
designer company. The company is Liz C. they have a 20 person staff 
from Pakistan called Visionxxx Systems who in turn contracted me to do a 
job for them (I am US Born and raised). Now under normal circumstances, I 
would have been hired eventually and trained in other areas of the company 

but not the budget conscious designer company. My assignment was done and 
they let me go. The Pakistani consulting company stayed. I am still out of 

work and now on P/A since I did not make enough money or time put in 
to file for unemployment!!!! THIS IS WHAT PROGRAMS LIKE THIS DO TO THE 
AMERICAN PEOPLE!!!!!!! 



Sincerely,





----- Original Message ----- 
From: Ken Shields 
To: midrange-jobs@midrange. com 
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 3:18 PM
Subject: Midrange Jobs National Discussion


*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list!
*** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
*** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this 
list.


Hi Everyone

The issue of out-sourcing is at the heart of all the lack of adequate 
employment
we're all experiencing these days.
Despite all out protestations, and letters to our congress people, the 
lobbying 
there is very powerful, and those trends continue unabated.
It really would be preferable, if there was a national limit placed on 
corporations ,
in respect to how much of their computer and administration work can go 
overseas.


Many of the Newsnet groups, and Job agency websites are responded to 
on a very
regular basis, by those same off-shore outfits, continually trying to 
scoop up what
small fragments remain in the market here.

I am a personnel recruiter, and personally spent four decades in the 
industry. 
Being a recruiter, and an ex computer professional are not mutually 
exclusive.

Twenty years in, and just about all the jobs in the market were Big 
Blue related,
but it's really a rarity today.
As previous articles to this group have shown, having 25 years 
experience ,
and excellent educational qualifications are no guarantee of finding 
work in this
slowly shrinking market segment

Keep writing letters to Congress, and don't give up the good fight

Regards
Ken Shields





-- 
This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS) mailing 
list
To post a message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx<
mailto:MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
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mailto:MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx>.
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-- 
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------------------------------

message: 5
date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:23:39 -0500
from: "Timothy A. Grove" 
subject: re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion

I've tried to stay out of this argument, but I can't .

I was unemployed for nearly 2 years. There were NO AS400 jobs for 
the majority of that time.
There were a TON of MS .NET jobs.

2 things:

1. I started my own business when I was unemployed (which further 
depleted my limited cash). I am building this business, so that I 
won't be at the mercy of an employer again.

2. I am learning .NET on my own (which is very slow and not very good 
for learning HOW it is used in business). This is so that when the 
AS400 market totally dies (with the machine, since IBM doesn't market 
it except through it's VARS), I'll have the ability to still work as a
coder.

My situation is this:

I DID find a permanent job a year and a half ago. It is in 
healthcare, and I am doing everything to please them so I won't get 
fired. I am making 10,000 less than I was when I was working last, 
and 15,000 less than what I made at the top of my career. (50,000 
less than what I was making as a consultant, but now, the going rate 
for AS400 programmer is $25/hr instead of the $60/Hr I was charging 
IF you can find a consulting gig) The drop in rates for consulting 
is DIRECTLY related to overseas outsourcing. Also, the hypocrites 
will not let an AMERICAN consultant work remotely, but freely give 
that access to overseas programmers, but don't get me started on that.....

My business just moved into the black. In only 3 years. It is in no 
way able to replace my income from my job, but in another 3 to 5 
years? That's my goal.

.NET is slow going, mainly because of my lack of time to devote to 
it. Once I am able to learn it, I can add .NET programming to my 
company's services. Also, I can create a program to sell, or a web 
portal, etc.

So, what made me respond? I wouldn't call myself lazy. There were 
NO opportunities for AS400 programmers. I have read the writing on 
the wall, and am moving on to other technologies, and positioning 
myself to be independant someday.

At 11:50 AM 1/28/2007, you wrote:

*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list!
*** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL
*** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this

list.




Sorry, but I find that to be the biggest bunch of bull I've heard in a
long time.

The lack of adequate employment is more based on the employees
unwillingness to learn new things than the fact that jobs have been




First, I do not think that laziness from applicants and the absence of
opportunities are the same thing, are they? So - I agree with you- we
have opportunities that Ken was not aware of!
I think Ken was speaking of volume/numbers and systemic declining
prosperity for folks in the industry he is in. Is my read on this
correct?

Now, about the laziness: Simply - your correct - everyone has seen
this. As a nation we are bloody spoiled rotten. The wake-up call is
upon us.

But is poor preperation the REASON for off-shoring - out-sourcing?
--
This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS) mailing

list

To post a message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options,
visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs
or email: MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx



Timothy A. Grove
Home: 574-233-2893
Cell: 574-286-5929
mailto:tagrove@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 

------------------------------

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End of MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 18
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