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Brian, I can't say I agree with that totally because my experience in the industry tells me something different. There are many factors involved while mainframe jobs may have gone away where you are located, they may be common in other areas like Central, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, or even Hawaii and pay quite well for those locations. How soon we all forget that prior to the Y2K fever, there was actually a shortage of IT professionals in general. Then all of a sudden there was a rush of people jumping into the IT field in order to take advantage of the Y2K frenzy. Then right around the end of 1999 and the early part of 2000 the industry changed quickly. While some shrinkage in the industry was expected due to an abundance of average and satisfactory IT resources, and while some have outdated skills, one still can't deny the negative impact of offshore outsourcing. Sure computer technologies change and yes it's imperative to maintain current technical skills but even in doing so, that is not always enough.
*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list! *** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL *** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this list. Most mainframe jobs went away. Most As400 jobs went away about the same time or maybe slightly thereafter. Most .Net and/or java jobs will go away as the technology changes to something else. Many of the current .net/java people don't believe it but it is so. A manager once told me he was in the process of rewriting his legacy systems. I assumed he was talking about his mainframe code. He was in fact talking about his C++ windows code, which seemed so popular 10 years ago. The fact is that computer technologies and languages change over time. It is VERY dangerous for ones career to 'ride out' a particular technology all the way to the end or near the end of it's popularity (ie. AS400 today). I was a mainframe programmer and watched my earnings get cut in 1/2 from the height to a near inability to find work. I'm sure this is not a popular thing (and will probably get flamed), but it is true. After a 20+ year career with something it is very hard to go back and be considered 'entry level' in a new language. I personally chose another career. Having h1 candidates available for AS400 work DOES affect a limited number of Americans ability to find work in that skillset, but it is NOT the main factor. The fact that the skillset is no longer in demand is the #1 reason. It is that simple. It is that unfortunate. We are only as secure in our jobs as our knowledge of the tools that are in demand. Tough fact in the computer business. Brian Whitfield -----Original Message----- From: midrange-jobs-bounces+bestjobs1=mindspring.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:midrange-jobs-bounces+bestjobs1=mindspring.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of midrange-jobs-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 11:31 PM To: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 18 Send MIDRANGE-JOBS mailing list submissions to midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to midrange-jobs-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx You can reach the person managing the list at midrange-jobs-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxx When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of MIDRANGE-JOBS digest..." *** NOTE: When replying to this digest message, PLEASE remove all text unrelated to your reply and change the subject line so it is meaningful. Today's Topics: 1. RE: US Jobs (Doug Hart) 2. Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion (pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx) 3. re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion (Mark Villa) 4. RE: Midrange Jobs National Discussion (Joe Murfitt) 5. re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion (Timothy A. Grove) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- message: 1 date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:54:26 -0500 from: Doug Hart <doughart.consulting@xxxxxxxxx> subject: RE: US Jobs The culture of corporate America has completely changed from valuing their employees (1950's) to taking a global view. It is all being driven by their costs and the bottom line. The value added by the American skilled worker is not in the equation. Ford Motor Company is laying off 50,00 - 75,000 workers. These factory workers making $27/hr will never make those earnings again in their lives. Many will end up working in retail at less than $10/hr. And benefits are a thing of the past. Hillary Clinton used NY tax dollars to help a startup consulting company in Buffalo New York. Of the 150 new jobs created only 3 are held by US citizens. From Albany NY West well into the Midwest states manufacturing was the engine that grew this country, not any more. My main client, a Fortune 300 company is investing heavily in a new plant in China. And they are rapidly moving to outsource their large datacenters. They already sent their application development to India. The buzz word they use in their newsletters is 'lean operations'. My small city in upstate NY had 3 large factories (national brands) 15 years ago. Two have closed and the 3rd is now foreign owned. In this entire region, once strong in manufacturing, no manufacturing growth has occurred in years. Major employers like G.E., Carrier Air Conditioner, Kodak, Xerox have either closed or are only a small percentage of their past size. What I'm saying is this is not just an I.T. problem. It is not a problem of skills in the work force. What is happening is that the economy has become global. This means that pay rates will find an average over a much larger base. Since we were the top of the scale we will drop the most to reach the mean. We need to be careful as our standard of living is surely going to fall. We can't afford the $350 billion we have spent on the war with no end in sight. Remember it was not bullets that ended the Cold War, it was Russia going bankrupt. I well remember when I was a kid, hearing about how the work week had been reduced over the last hundred and fifty years to 40 hours. The expectation was that it would continue to shorten. Little did anyone think that it would be because of the lack of work. Government and the heads of industry must rethink about their 'long term' investment. If they invest in America they are investing in us. I tell the people I work with that investing in China is such a short term view. In 20 years China may well be our enemy and they will loose everything they built there. The bottom line is it costs less to do business else where. Yes, you get what you pay for. One of my favorite saying is this. Fast, Cheap, or Good Pick ONLY Two If you want it fast and cheap, the results will not be good. If you want it fast and good, it's not going to be cheap. And, if you want it cheap and good, it certainly won't be fast. Lets put 'good' back into the bottom line because it's right. Another common justification for everything is 'it's the money'. OK, so lets spend the money here and see why we can build with it. -- Doug Hart ------------------------------ message: 2 date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 16:20:37 -0600 from: pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx subject: Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion Those problems have already started surfacing. I knew a guy in California who worked for Bank of America. The third time he had to train an Indian to take his job, he went out to his car and ate his gun. We have out of work programmers working at Home Depot and Wal-Mart. I know a guy here in Chicago who lost his job 4 years ago in an iSeries shop. He went back to school and learned the PC programming languages, and he still can't get a job because he's competing with 20-somethings who are single. My friend has a family and a mortgage. Our major problem in this workplace is the 30 to 40 something MBA's who manage on a quarter to quarter basis rather than taking the long view. -- Paul Nelson Arbor Solutions, Inc. 708-670-6978 Cell pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx "Ken Shields" <kjs@xxxxxxxxxxx> 01/28/2007 11:23 AM To <pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx> cc Subject Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion Well, I think it's just financially driven, and nothing serious will happen from a legislative point of view until some really serious societal problems start surfacing Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx To: Ken Shields Cc: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 9:52 AM Subject: Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion Well, duh. I would really be interested in learning how the culture of "palm greasing" practiced by people of other nations has crept into these outsourcing decisions. A lot of C level people who decide in favor of outsourcing drive some nice cars. -- Paul Nelson Arbor Solutions, Inc. 708-670-6978 Cell pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx "Ken Shields" <kjs@xxxxxxxxxxx> 01/27/2007 07:12 PM To <pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx> cc Subject Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion Paul ..right on.. One other phenomenon I encountered Home spun consulting companies, a list of names you'd probably recognize, actively engaged by corporations to out-source their IT work, worth a great deal of money I sort of equate the problem to the problem of Global warming No government incentive until dozens of American cities are under water. No government incentive on out-sourcing, until cities have so many poor, they can't pay their tax roles They might however; reconsider out-sourcing legislation soon, when the 43 trillion dollar Federal debt comes home to roost Any one of us have trouble counting to a million...LOL Do you think human greed plays a factor?.. Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx To: Alex Montalvo Cc: Ken Shields ; midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; midrange-jobs-bounces+pnelson=arbsol.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 7:06 PM Subject: Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion For what it's worth, Billary's in bed with the Indians, Tata Consulting, for one, is a contributor to her war chest -- Paul Nelson Arbor Solutions, Inc. 708-670-6978 Cell pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx "Alex Montalvo" <alexmrpg@xxxxxxx> Sent by: midrange-jobs-bounces+pnelson=arbsol.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx 01/27/2007 04:15 PM To "Ken Shields" <kjs@xxxxxxxxxxx>, <midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx> cc Subject Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion *** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list! *** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL *** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this list. There is a reason! Below is a letter emailed to some of our so called representatives. They did not vote at all on this. Also companies use out sources and h1b's to justify higher budgets and for tax purposes. Thank you for using FAIR Congressional Task Force Mail System Message sent to the following recipients: Senator Schumer Senator Clinton Representative Maloney Mr. President Message text follows: March 23, 2006 [recipient address was inserted here] Dear [recipient name was inserted here], Abolish the Guest worker Program and form legislation punishing those who favor cheap foreign labor instead of advocating it. I should be on my way to owning my first home not owning food stamps and being 13,000 in debt! I have been searching for a career in IT the IBM AS/400 is my field of expertise and I cannot string two jobs together without being out of work 6-8 months at a time. This is what this program is doing to US and kicking US in the A!!!!!! I own a car I cannot afford because all the jobs in my field aren't in NY. I just finished a contract working for one month with a well known fashion designer who had H1B's contracted to work as their programmers. I was contracted for a 2-4 month assignment which ended in when I completed the work in six weeks as a result of pressure to finish quickly by the designer company. The company is Liz C. they have a 20 person staff from Pakistan called Visionxxx Systems who in turn contracted me to do a job for them (I am US Born and raised). Now under normal circumstances, I would have been hired eventually and trained in other areas of the company but not the budget conscious designer company. My assignment was done and they let me go. The Pakistani consulting company stayed. I am still out of work and now on P/A since I did not make enough money or time put in to file for unemployment!!!! THIS IS WHAT PROGRAMS LIKE THIS DO TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!!!!!!! Sincerely, ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Shields<mailto:kjs@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: midrange-jobs@midrange. com<mailto:midrange-jobs@midrange.%20com> Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 3:18 PM Subject: Midrange Jobs National Discussion *** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list! *** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL *** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this list. Hi Everyone The issue of out-sourcing is at the heart of all the lack of adequate employment we're all experiencing these days. Despite all out protestations, and letters to our congress people, the lobbying there is very powerful, and those trends continue unabated. It really would be preferable, if there was a national limit placed on corporations , in respect to how much of their computer and administration work can go overseas. Many of the Newsnet groups, and Job agency websites are responded to on a very regular basis, by those same off-shore outfits, continually trying to scoop up what small fragments remain in the market here. I am a personnel recruiter, and personally spent four decades in the industry. Being a recruiter, and an ex computer professional are not mutually exclusive. Twenty years in, and just about all the jobs in the market were Big Blue related, but it's really a rarity today. As previous articles to this group have shown, having 25 years experience , and excellent educational qualifications are no guarantee of finding work in this slowly shrinking market segment Keep writing letters to Congress, and don't give up the good fight Regards Ken Shields -- This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS) mailing list To post a message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx< mailto:MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs< http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs> or email: MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx< mailto:MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx>. -- This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS) mailing list To post a message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs or email: MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ------------------------------ message: 3 date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 11:50:58 -0500 from: "Mark Villa" <iseries.4.me@xxxxxxxxx> subject: re: Midrange Jobs National DiscussionSorry, but I find that to be the biggest bunch of bull I've heard in a long time. The lack of adequate employment is more based on the employees unwillingness to learn new things than the fact that jobs have beenFirst, I do not think that laziness from applicants and the absence of opportunities are the same thing, are they? So - I agree with you- we have opportunities that Ken was not aware of! I think Ken was speaking of volume/numbers and systemic declining prosperity for folks in the industry he is in. Is my read on this correct? Now, about the laziness: Simply - your correct - everyone has seen this. As a nation we are bloody spoiled rotten. The wake-up call is upon us. But is poor preperation the REASON for off-shoring - out-sourcing? ------------------------------ message: 4 date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 21:44:57 -0500 from: "Joe Murfitt" <jmurfitt@xxxxxxxxxx> subject: RE: Midrange Jobs National Discussion I got laid off five years ago as a senior programmer/analyst and just now got a 6 month contract as a computer operator. There is nothing available. I've also fallen behind on my skills and don't know what to do next. -----Original Message----- From: midrange-jobs-bounces+jmurfitt=cfl.rr.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:midrange-jobs-bounces+jmurfitt=cfl.rr.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 5:21 PM To: Ken Shields Cc: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion *** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list! *** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL *** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this list. Those problems have already started surfacing. I knew a guy in California who worked for Bank of America. The third time he had to train an Indian to take his job, he went out to his car and ate his gun. We have out of work programmers working at Home Depot and Wal-Mart. I know a guy here in Chicago who lost his job 4 years ago in an iSeries shop. He went back to school and learned the PC programming languages, and he still can't get a job because he's competing with 20-somethings who are single. My friend has a family and a mortgage. Our major problem in this workplace is the 30 to 40 something MBA's who manage on a quarter to quarter basis rather than taking the long view. -- Paul Nelson Arbor Solutions, Inc. 708-670-6978 Cell pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx "Ken Shields" <kjs@xxxxxxxxxxx> 01/28/2007 11:23 AM To <pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx> cc Subject Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion Well, I think it's just financially driven, and nothing serious will happen from a legislative point of view until some really serious societal problems start surfacing Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx To: Ken Shields Cc: midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 9:52 AM Subject: Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion Well, duh. I would really be interested in learning how the culture of "palm greasing" practiced by people of other nations has crept into these outsourcing decisions. A lot of C level people who decide in favor of outsourcing drive some nice cars. -- Paul Nelson Arbor Solutions, Inc. 708-670-6978 Cell pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx "Ken Shields" <kjs@xxxxxxxxxxx> 01/27/2007 07:12 PM To <pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx> cc Subject Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion Paul ..right on.. One other phenomenon I encountered Home spun consulting companies, a list of names you'd probably recognize, actively engaged by corporations to out-source their IT work, worth a great deal of money I sort of equate the problem to the problem of Global warming No government incentive until dozens of American cities are under water. No government incentive on out-sourcing, until cities have so many poor, they can't pay their tax roles They might however; reconsider out-sourcing legislation soon, when the 43 trillion dollar Federal debt comes home to roost Any one of us have trouble counting to a million...LOL Do you think human greed plays a factor?.. Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx To: Alex Montalvo Cc: Ken Shields ; midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; midrange-jobs-bounces+pnelson=arbsol.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 7:06 PM Subject: Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion For what it's worth, Billary's in bed with the Indians, Tata Consulting, for one, is a contributor to her war chest -- Paul Nelson Arbor Solutions, Inc. 708-670-6978 Cell pnelson@xxxxxxxxxx "Alex Montalvo" <alexmrpg@xxxxxxx> Sent by: midrange-jobs-bounces+pnelson=arbsol.com@xxxxxxxxxxxx 01/27/2007 04:15 PM To "Ken Shields" <kjs@xxxxxxxxxxx>, <midrange-jobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx> cc Subject Re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion *** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list! *** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL *** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this list. There is a reason! Below is a letter emailed to some of our so called representatives. They did not vote at all on this. Also companies use out sources and h1b's to justify higher budgets and for tax purposes. Thank you for using FAIR Congressional Task Force Mail System Message sent to the following recipients: Senator Schumer Senator Clinton Representative Maloney Mr. President Message text follows: March 23, 2006 [recipient address was inserted here] Dear [recipient name was inserted here], Abolish the Guest worker Program and form legislation punishing those who favor cheap foreign labor instead of advocating it. I should be on my way to owning my first home not owning food stamps and being 13,000 in debt! I have been searching for a career in IT the IBM AS/400 is my field of expertise and I cannot string two jobs together without being out of work 6-8 months at a time. This is what this program is doing to US and kicking US in the A!!!!!! I own a car I cannot afford because all the jobs in my field aren't in NY. I just finished a contract working for one month with a well known fashion designer who had H1B's contracted to work as their programmers. I was contracted for a 2-4 month assignment which ended in when I completed the work in six weeks as a result of pressure to finish quickly by the designer company. The company is Liz C. they have a 20 person staff from Pakistan called Visionxxx Systems who in turn contracted me to do a job for them (I am US Born and raised). Now under normal circumstances, I would have been hired eventually and trained in other areas of the company but not the budget conscious designer company. My assignment was done and they let me go. The Pakistani consulting company stayed. I am still out of work and now on P/A since I did not make enough money or time put in to file for unemployment!!!! THIS IS WHAT PROGRAMS LIKE THIS DO TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!!!!!!! Sincerely, ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Shields<mailto:kjs@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: midrange-jobs@midrange. com<mailto:midrange-jobs@midrange.%20com> Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 3:18 PM Subject: Midrange Jobs National Discussion *** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list! *** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL *** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in this list. Hi Everyone The issue of out-sourcing is at the heart of all the lack of adequate employment we're all experiencing these days. Despite all out protestations, and letters to our congress people, the lobbying there is very powerful, and those trends continue unabated. It really would be preferable, if there was a national limit placed on corporations , in respect to how much of their computer and administration work can go overseas. Many of the Newsnet groups, and Job agency websites are responded to on a very regular basis, by those same off-shore outfits, continually trying to scoop up what small fragments remain in the market here. I am a personnel recruiter, and personally spent four decades in the industry. Being a recruiter, and an ex computer professional are not mutually exclusive. Twenty years in, and just about all the jobs in the market were Big Blue related, but it's really a rarity today. As previous articles to this group have shown, having 25 years experience , and excellent educational qualifications are no guarantee of finding work in this slowly shrinking market segment Keep writing letters to Congress, and don't give up the good fight Regards Ken Shields -- This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS) mailing list To post a message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx< mailto:MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs< http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs> or email: MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx< mailto:MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx>. -- This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS) mailing list To post a message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs or email: MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx -- This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS) mailing list To post a message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs or email: MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ------------------------------ message: 5 date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:23:39 -0500 from: "Timothy A. Grove" <tagrove@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> subject: re: Midrange Jobs National Discussion I've tried to stay out of this argument, but I can't . I was unemployed for nearly 2 years. There were NO AS400 jobs for the majority of that time. There were a TON of MS .NET jobs. 2 things: 1. I started my own business when I was unemployed (which further depleted my limited cash). I am building this business, so that I won't be at the mercy of an employer again. 2. I am learning .NET on my own (which is very slow and not very good for learning HOW it is used in business). This is so that when the AS400 market totally dies (with the machine, since IBM doesn't market it except through it's VARS), I'll have the ability to still work as a coder. My situation is this: I DID find a permanent job a year and a half ago. It is in healthcare, and I am doing everything to please them so I won't get fired. I am making 10,000 less than I was when I was working last, and 15,000 less than what I made at the top of my career. (50,000 less than what I was making as a consultant, but now, the going rate for AS400 programmer is $25/hr instead of the $60/Hr I was charging IF you can find a consulting gig) The drop in rates for consulting is DIRECTLY related to overseas outsourcing. Also, the hypocrites will not let an AMERICAN consultant work remotely, but freely give that access to overseas programmers, but don't get me started on that..... My business just moved into the black. In only 3 years. It is in no way able to replace my income from my job, but in another 3 to 5 years? That's my goal. .NET is slow going, mainly because of my lack of time to devote to it. Once I am able to learn it, I can add .NET programming to my company's services. Also, I can create a program to sell, or a web portal, etc. So, what made me respond? I wouldn't call myself lazy. There were NO opportunities for AS400 programmers. I have read the writing on the wall, and am moving on to other technologies, and positioning myself to be independant someday. At 11:50 AM 1/28/2007, you wrote:*** Please pay close attention when replying to a message on this list! *** If you want the reply to go to the list, use REPLY-TO-ALL *** Recruiters may advertise only permanent employment positions in thislist.Sorry, but I find that to be the biggest bunch of bull I've heard in a long time. The lack of adequate employment is more based on the employees unwillingness to learn new things than the fact that jobs have beenFirst, I do not think that laziness from applicants and the absence of opportunities are the same thing, are they? So - I agree with you- we have opportunities that Ken was not aware of! I think Ken was speaking of volume/numbers and systemic declining prosperity for folks in the industry he is in. Is my read on this correct? Now, about the laziness: Simply - your correct - everyone has seen this. As a nation we are bloody spoiled rotten. The wake-up call is upon us. But is poor preperation the REASON for off-shoring - out-sourcing? -- This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS) mailinglistTo post a message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs or email: MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxTimothy A. Grove Home: 574-233-2893 Cell: 574-286-5929 mailto:tagrove@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ------------------------------ -- This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS) digest list To post a message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs or email: MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/midrange-jobs. End of MIDRANGE-JOBS Digest, Vol 5, Issue 18 ******************************************** -- This is the Midrange Jobs: Postings & Discussion (MIDRANGE-JOBS) mailing list To post a message email: MIDRANGE-JOBS@xxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/midrange-jobs or email: MIDRANGE-JOBS-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
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