Ross,
Thank you for the insight, and info.
Thanx,
Nick
Nick Radich
Sr. Programmer/Analyst
EPC Molding, Inc.
Direct (320) 679-6683
Toll free (800) 388-2155 ext. 6683
Fax (320) 679-4516
nick_radich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Ross Freeman <Ross.Freeman@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent by: mapics-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx
09/03/2009 04:13 PM
Please respond to
MAPICS ERP System Discussion <mapics-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
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Subject
[MAPICS-L] XA Today
Kevin's posting has set off another train of thought. Many of our
customers are not much aware of Infor, and how it is different from the
latter days of MAPICS. Some of you may have seen presentations from me on
this topic, others may not.
Let me provide some little known facts about XA.
- #2 ERP in Infor by revenue
- Very close to #1 in revenue in North America
- Customer count has been essentially stable since 2003 (about 1600
customers, 2500+ sites)
- Annual retention rate over 97% (probably highest in the industry)
- One of Infor's "go forward" ERP platforms that 100% participates in the
SOA and Evolve initiatives
- XA Development investment (Enrich) has been fairly stable over time,
still maintaining one of the largest Development labs in Infor
- IBM has finally taken the cloud away from the System i platform - we
have seen a full roadmap for the product going to 2015. No more doubts
about XA's future because of the platform.
The perception that XA is being allowed to slowly dwindle away is 100%
false. That may have been true of MAPICS (I believe it was), but it is
not true of Infor. It is understandable that customers have seen less
action since 2005 than they may have hoped. But let me share some of
Infor's accomplishments over that period.
- Consolidated 30+ acquisitions, 98 separate business systems and 200+ GL
reporting entities, into one. In less than three years, on Infor software
(of course).
- Rationalized all internal business systems and processes across 150+
offices around the world
- Built unified global organizations in Sales, Marketing, Development,
Product Management, and Administration
- Rebuilt a large number of damaged products, where the predecessor
company was visibly failing their customers
- Conceived, designed, built and deployed a complete SOA strategy and
architecture, deploying across 20+ major application sets (ERPs, Financial
Systems, Distribution Systems, EAM, SCM...)
- Conceived and executed a $350 million development strategy across all
key product lines, over and above regular ongoing investments for each
product.
- Infor-ized the XA solution set, to enable XA to take advantage of the
Infor strategy - same for all go forward products in Infor
- Conceived, built and launched the FLEX program company wide - in three
months.
- Built and deployed a dedicated System i group - in five months
- Built new customer facing organizations to make sure we actively touch
our customers on a regular basis - all 70,000 customers, plus reaching out
to many more who have "left the family" over the years.
- Maintained solid financial results during the worst recession in recent
memory
Infor's accomplishments in this short period are breathtaking, in my view.
XA is a key player in this story. However, much of this was internal work,
out of the view of our customers. It is understandable that customers did
not see the activity, and felt a sense of drift around XA.
All of these efforts are bearing fruit this year. I believe all our
customers will see increasing speed of delivery, decisiveness of action
and longer term viewpoint. Our focus is on keeping our customers with us -
and making sure we are still in business to be there with you.
Full disclosure - like Kevin, I have been in systems for close to 30
years. I have worked intensively with 13 ERP systems, as well as many
other manufacturing systems. I've been a customer, consultant,
salesperson, developer, designer, product manager, and more. I haven't
done as many countries as Kevin has, only 18.
Infor has provided the opportunity for a great team to unleash their
talents. You haven't seen a lot of that yet, but you will.
This is a statement from me as a person, having worked in all parts of the
software business. This is not Infor marketing material, this is the truth
as I see it.
Ross Freeman
-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 1:00 PM
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Subject: MAPICS-L Digest, Vol 7, Issue 151
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Source code costs (Kevin Fox)
2. Re: Source code costs (Kevin Fox)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
message: 1
date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 09:26:22 -0700
from: "Kevin Fox" <kdfox@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs
Eric
Since I know you well enough to know that you won't take offense, I'm
going
to use your posting to put my two cents into the mix.
I have to disagree with you. Dick Cook and his cronies only did one thing
right, they kept mapics out of that protean mess. However, while claiming
to "support our customer base" they ran mapics to ground...that is why
there
is still green screen application screens in 2009 (hopefully soon to be
forgotten).
Infor on the other had has invested heavily in developing AND executing a
very sound strategy to rescue its customers from the 1980's. Has anyone
realized that they can upgrade to the latest code for next to nothing?
(Flex
program) Does anyone realize that their ALF now includes the free
deployment
on a module by module bases of the SOA architecture? (BTW, how many of
you
have deployed in a test environment MY DAY? And yes I know that the XA
integration is a work in progress, but still, do you have plans for it?)
Anyone who claims that INFOR is not concerned with supporting its customer
base is either just plan ignorant of the facts or continues to get all
gooey
and mushy when they see green screens. Giving away code is NOT supporting
your customer, it is guaranteeing that they will eventually be unsupported
or have antiquated software which makes their business processes in
efficient.
Has anyone deployed SupplyWeb? We have seen 300-400% process ROI's. It's
a
MUST HAVE. I'd like to know if 1) you have deployed, 2) you are in the
process of deploying, 3) you don't think you need it, 4) you have no idea
what I'm talking about.
BTW, everyone should know that many of the "protesters" on this log are
either a: former employees of failed companies that refused to understand
the INVESTMENT in IT/IS required and now no longer use any system much
less
MAPICS because they are out of business or sold to a company that DID
INVEST
in IT/IS; b: current consultants who get their money from RPG green screen
programming and can't understand why the world has changed; c: current
employees of customers that still, in 2009, do not understand the value
and/or strategy of investing in IT/IS.
It is very interesting for me to see that the "defenders" of the policies
(excluding INFOR employees of course) are usually customers that are very
proactive about process improvement and investment in the supporting IT/IS
requirements.
Let me refer to the specific issue of the source code. Understand that
this
company is still on R3 circa 1994-96. (I implemented the first R3 code
with
IFM and remember well the pain!) They have not invested for more than 15
years and STILL don't want to invest. They see the source code as a COST.
If they have properly done their homework, there should be a good business
case including ROI that says that staying on the current code, investing
in
source code, investing in a programmers annuity to maintain the code
structure for x number of years is cost justified. But I think not, they
just complain about the cost. These are the companies that either have
low
growth, no growth or just don't care. I could be wrong, but I'd love to
hear what the cost justification was to begin to migrate to R7 code base
and
if enterprise integrator is included in their analysis.
My advice to my clients is always the same, if you can cost justify moving
to a different ERP solution you have a moral(!) obligation to do so. If
you
cannot, then you have an equal obligation to invest in process
improvements
and where practical utilize the new features and functions that you are
entitled to with your ALF.
Everyone on this list should know that I do not work for INFOR or any of
the
INFOR channel partners or INFOR software partners. I have however been
co-founder of two different MAPICS affiliates, designed, architected and
developed the XA PLM software, and have worked for MAPICS / XA clients in
26
countries for the past 32 years. My only source of revenue is advising
management teams on how to improve processes by selecting and deploying
information systems; very often this has been MAPICS, MAPICS XA or INFOR
XA,
but just as often it is something else.
I hope that I've continued to stir up the pot on this topic. This is good
for the community.
Kevin Fox
Fox Enterprises and Professional Services LLC
(909) 762-1384
-----Original Message-----
From: mapics-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:mapics-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Eric A. Wolf
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:03 AM
To: 'MAPICS ERP System Discussion'
Subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs
One thing that we (the XA user community) have to realize is that the XA
customer base is not as large it used to be. Remember the days when you
would here that "MAPICS is being used world-wide by over 4000 customers"?
That number is probably closer to 1400 now.
At the first Infor (combined) conference, I felt like the XA users were
only
a small part of the Infor community. I guess what I am saying is that we
are
no longer the primary customer base of Infor and they are looking at the
bigger picture. We just have to get used to it.
IMHO...
Eric
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------------------------------
message: 2
date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 09:29:02 -0700
from: "Kevin Fox" <kdfox@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs
This sounds much more reasonable that your original post.
-----Original Message-----
From: mapics-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:mapics-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Kevin Mann
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 9:19 AM
To: mapics-l@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs
A rebuttal to Ross's comments;
As the originator of this post, I would like to again clarify a few
points. When I started using Mapics (Mapics II) the source code was
delivered free with your purchase of Mapics. I remember working for
other companies in the 90s when either Marcam or Mapics started charging
for source code. This was supposed to be a one time charge for source
code never to be charged again. The companies that I worked for during
that time had to purchase source code. Research, at my current company
shows that they purchased source code for Mapics XA in 1997. Source code
was provided for XA release 4 in 2004 and again after I arrived here in
2005 for release 7. There are people at Infor that have acknowledged to
me that we do indeed have the rights to the source code. In Ross's first
post he said that if you paid for it you should have it. I don't know
when the ALF for source came about, but I can not find anyone in my area
that had heard of it, including affiliates and former affiliates. We
were using a local affiliate in 2005 and 2006 while converting to
release 7. There was no mention of and no knowledge of ALF's at that
time.
I have no desire to modify more XA source code. I am only looking to
maintain what we are currently using, which unfortunately, is heavily
modified in some applications. In this instance I was looking for the
source code for an inventory tag print file to see if I could get it to
print on a laser printer. Source is also needed before I can apply a PTF
against a previously modified program. I can understand Infor being more
protective of their source code, but they must recognize the predicament
that they are putting long time customers like us in, if we can't apply
PTF's anymore.
As to Josh's comments;
This incident started with my starting inquiring to support when I could
not find the source code download. This was escalated to the point we
are at now which is talking with Infor management. The lawsuit that you
mention would be a last resort which I would hope doesn't happen. I made
my original post here only to notify others in my position that may have
been unaware of this change.
Note: I have had a conversation with someone in management with Infor's
support team this morning. This person is researching our situation and
will hopefully get back to me with some positive news.
Thanks,
Kevin
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