Re: 3rd party stuff / was Java-based forums -- JAVA400-L

Daniel,

you are correct on this one and i agreed with you in my last mail. I was just a little irritated because Joe spoke about 3rd party libs, which is a different area alltogether.

Let me explain why in my oppinion java failed to capture the big OSS projects. Starting with 1.5 (Tiger) we will have a quite acceptable startup time for J2SE applications. Even then we will notice that only on the second application startup. Given that most people most likely will only use one java product at all, this wont give us much. Why are we in that situation? Because Sun still failed to create a system wide VM that starts on Operating System start. Of course there are some risks when having one VM for all applications, but the benefits would be awesome.

But thats not the complete story, modern J2SE apps are nevertheless quite speedy, ok you will have to wait a few seconds more than starting a c++ app, but inside the app, when properly coded, you wont notice the too much difference. But the majority of good java developers are in the J2EE space, and developing a performant J2SE application is really a tough task. The guys from Jetbrains (Intellij IDEA - a Java IDE) are demonstrating what you can do if you are a skilled Swing programmer. Many developers starting a GUI project seem to have benchmarks in their mind of past time where java was at 1.2 or 1.3 and dont use Java at all. Swing really improved in the last year.

So there are many myths around J2SE performance and little of them are tue. Especially the "use SWT for fast java apps" Myth is horrible. Java had a aweful start in GUI programming, lets see if the people get that start out of their heads and look at Swing again.

Marc Logemann

Daniel Feather wrote:

However, from my experience, when it comes to full-blown, finished, usable products that someone can just install and use "out of the box" I haven't seen much that was "free" (read: OSS) that was all that great. That is just from my experience though and I didn't pre-qualify my earlier statements with that information. I may be misinformed, but my experiences in that area have not always been that great.

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