Re: Java and the AS/400 -- JAVA400-L

** Reply to note from DAsmussen@aol.com Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:32:11 -0500 (EST)

> Agreed.  All that the users seem to care about these days is if the
> application works on those rare occasions that you can get to it.  Just
> today, my primary client's entire developement staff was down from an AS/400
> perspective because the server was down (except for those few of us still on
> OS/2, because CM/2 "don't need no stinkin' network!").  Frankly, I'm still
> waiting on that "less flakey" PC though...

Well, be patient! ;-)

Actually, CA doesn't need a network either. For some reason many people
have this belief that they need to pipe their connections through a server.

But there is no reason to give up CM/2. CM/2 and OS/2 are the most
dependable 5250 combination in existance. CM/2 is far more memory efficient
than CA or Pcomm. So, since you have a faster, more reliable solution
already running, why the heck haven't you tossed it all away for something
that has more buttons?!?!?!

> Cut off your nose to spite your face?  CallPath was to be less than 20% of
> overall revenue, the rest was selling new AS/400's with _OTHER_ applications
> on them.  Sueing IBM would hardly have been an intelligent choice.

Not necessarily. Sueing IBM over CallPath wouldn't change the standards
with any other agreement. We see cross suits in the marketplace all the
time. The business partner program has a standard structure and is designed
to sell hardware. IBM isn't going to cut of their nose to spite their face
either. Why would they stop you from selling their hardware because of the
Callpath suit?

> Did you actually _read_ the previous paragraph ;-)?  NT is even less proven
> than JAVA!  In fact, there is a _LOT_ more evidence (not anecdotal) of NT
> projects either failing or _FAR_ exceeding budget than there is of the same
> happening in JAVA implementations.  I'm not saying that the "wait and see"
> attitude is what _SHOULD_ happen, I'm saying that it's what _WILL_ happen!
>  Why else would the (_EXTREMELY_ wordy and _DEFINITELY NOT_ part of your RAD
> plan) COBOL language still run so many of the world's systems?

NT has a lot more history than Java. NT has a lot of failures. Let's see
where the NT "success anecdotes" come from primarily. The press is filled
with the zillion features that make NT the second coming. People buy NT but
the saviour features are not yet working or not yet released. NT still
works as a file or print server. That gets used. Statistics would then
point to millions of working installs AND zillions of miracle features.

It may appear like a bunch of crap to us, but Ziff-Davis sells ad space
that way. 

The point here isn't to slam NT (that does no good) but to explain my
response. I indicated NT as a path because people are buying it and using
it. 

If midrangers don't adopt new technologies and move into the areas that
buyers want, the perception of the dinosaur is real. 

It doesn't matter that NT is crap. If people keep dumping money into it
someday something will work there and there will be a real platform to
contend with.

It doesn't matter that the AS/400 is rock solid, if developers don't build
the features into it that buyers want, it will sooner or later quit
selling. 

These to paths have to cross someday. If Rochester wants to compete with
other platforms like NT or Unix (I remember when Novell was gonna be the
400 killer) the they have to do it by providing what the buyers want. Right
now, they cater to the buyers who want dependability more than flash. But
what happens when flash is dependable too? Or when dependability is not as
important?

> Because none of my examples were _EVER_ good, other than the fact that the
> "environments" allowed 36/38 users to port to the AS/400 without too much
> grief from "management".  CallPath and Fax/400 were both inferior to products
> from third partys from their inception.  The 8088 was _more_ than good for
> its day, and yes times change.

Well, this may be far off path, but I can only see the above comment from
someone who never had to write assembly on a memory segmenting processor
when perfectly good Z80s and 68000 chips were available. I believe there
had to be cost considerations involved in the adoption of the 8088. 

There are some who might disagree with your assessment of CallPath and
Fax/400. But that isn't really the point is it? After all, in all markets
with competing products some will be considered better than others. I guess
buyers would do well to investigate what is available and buy the best
product for their business.

It would be unfair, I think, to chastise a company because they told you to
buy their product over a competitors. I think that is what we expect them
to do. Even if the product is Windows 95 and their competitor is OS/2. Just
because they are selling manure in a flower shop doesn't mean they
shouldn't pitch it well, it just means we shouldn't be stupid enough to buy
it. Or, if we are stupid enough to buy Win 95 we shouldn't whine later that
it appears as if the market trend is toward less reliable platforms.

Sorry, that must be the OS/2 user in me. 

> Oh now _THAT_ was a little premature.  People have been predicting the demise
> of the midrange since the advent of the PC.  I don't see HP, DEC, or Tandem
> folks exactly "hopping on the JAVA bandwagon" either, and PC's _STILL_ don't
> support anywhere _NEAR_ the transaction volume required to replace the
> midrange.  PC storage capacity and CPU MHz have grown but, as I stated
> before, the CPU still waits at the same speed as all of the others (and
> capacity doesn't equal throughput).

No, HP, DEC, and Tandem are hopping on the NT bandwagon. In the long term,
I think this gives the PC server platform inroads to displace the AS/400.
Thus, my comments.

> >  My company is leveraging the fact that many AS/400 shops will be slow to
> >  move. We are developing a new version of our product using Java, while
> >  continuing our RPG implementation. Perhaps this will help to put a couple
> >  of the fence sitters out of business.
>   
> Good for you!  That should encourage others to do the same, to the benefit of
> all!

Well, I hope it benefits all, but I feel like we will be gaining some
market share from this move. My personal belief is that our company's
strong commitment to Java and the AS/400 will help to make us a top
contender for the distribution industry. 

We are using the San Francisco project frameworks. The company I work for
is very involved in the SF project. I would like to see a lot of software
houses get behind that effort (but perhaps not too many after the same
market segment!). 

> The only thing I "bitch" about when it comes to IBM is their advertising, and
> _THAT's_ only because of what I'm about to say.  IBM, IMHO, has the ABSOLUTE
> BEST technology from both a hardware _AND_ software standpoint than any other
> vendor in the market when it comes to the AS/400.  "The industry" was
> predicting the demise of the AS/400 after eight years, and now here comes the
> RISC box, HTML DDS, and JAVA.  The AS/400 is the absolute _BEST_ technology,
> dollar for dollar, that can be had today -- that nobody has ever heard of.
>  IBM is doing a _FANTASTIC_ job of developing new technology...if only they'd
> do as well promoting it.

Well, first I'd like to say that we should both be careful to separate the
two similar concepts. Advertise and promote. 

I don't know what makes a commercial good. For gosh sakes I wouldn't think
those Intel commercials would have any value at all. I am not sure why
having people dancing in clean suits would make me want MMX technology. Is
that supposed to make me believe this is the "party chip"? Is that the
marketing connection? 

So maybe IBM's ads are lousy, maybe they are great. I think the only way to
judge that is to find out what kind of response IBM is getting off of them.
Any idea how that might be accomplished?

But I do think that advertising to the consumer market is different from
advertising to the Fortune 100 market. Probably the small
business/departmental market is some cross of the other two.

I know I have asked operators who were using 5250 emulation if they
happened to know what the business package was they were using and gotten
responses like, "Oh, we use Windows!" or "I don't know, but it's
Microsoft." I'm not sure what advertising to them would do. 

Promoting, marketing? Those things need to be done with greater efficiency!
More more! But what? I'm not buying the story that ads are going to sell a
lot more AS/400s. Now, if a zillion companies were running Java software
and they all had a need for better horsepower behind the scenes, then I
think that advertising the brand against it's competition should go hot and
heavy. But I'm not sure the market is fully there yet. 

If ads aren't the answer (humor me), then what things should IBM be doing
to further the AS/400 in the market?

> Dean Asmussen
 

Chris Rehm
Mr.AS400@ibm.net

How often can you afford to be unexpectedly out of business?
Get an AS/400.
+---
| This is the Midrange System Mailing List!
| To submit a new message, send your mail to "JAVA400-L@midrange.com".
| To unsubscribe from this list send email to JAVA400-L-UNSUB@midrange.com.
| Questions should be directed to the list owner/operator: david@midrange.com
+---