Re: Java and the AS/400 -- JAVA400-L

** Reply to note from DAsmussen@aol.com Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:58:19 -0500 (EST)


> something other than the brain, wrists, and fingers, we'd be _RICH_ ;-D!!!

And I wouldn't look like a truck from behind.

> In defense of "the midrange circuit", I think that many spent the same time
> and money that I did trying to learn "C" (being the "language of the month")
> because the AS/400 finally supported it and none of us wanted to fall into
> the "COBOL purgatory" that many of our MVS colleagues did.  Guess what?  None
> of our managers _WANTED_ "C" applications on the AS/400!  "C" ended up
> serving those whose management demanded they move to UNIX, and being a total
> bust on the /400.

You don't have to defend them to me, I am them too! I did learn C. I also
thrilled at something C let me do that I couldn't do before, write a record
to an AS/400 data queue from a PC. I could write a C program to gather data
from a com port and write it to an AS/400 data queue. Now, was I the only
AS/400 C programmer to learn that? 

I think that there were many influences that caused C to not be used to the
exent it should have. But C is still a very viable tool for creating C/S
applications on the AS/400. Rather than make use of it, we hear that it is
another IBM failure. 

Java will help to cure that by bringing new programmers to the AS/400 who
are interested in coding Java. That's because you can take any Java
progammer, and put him on the AS/400. 


> I think that the midrange market _WANTS_ JAVA to work, but it scares the hell
> out of them given their past experiences...

I think the difficulty here is that many midrangers think of Java as just a
language. Without understanding what the JVM does and what can be achieved
by using applets as clients, midrange people don't have a clue about what
we are on the verge of.

> Hmmmm.  Hard to argue.  Today's "computer literate" person has, indeed,
> become far too comfortable with the "three fingered salute" and having to
> toast a half-day's work because the OS crashed.  Part of the problem though,
> has been businesses' willingness to be a co-conspirator in this useless waste
> of time.  At most of my client sites, if the /400 were to go down for even 30
> seconds during the day there would be _ABSOLUTE HELL_ to pay.  Yet these same
> sites seem to have no problem with the network going down for 30 minutes to
> THREE HOURS a day (as long as the factory floor isn't affected)!  Do these
> people not realize that office personnel _AVERAGE_ $5/hour higher than their
> factory counterparts in pay?  Why is this acceptable, while factory outages
> aren't?  The factory cannot run without their support personnel any more than
> they can without their shop floor devices!

Well, we would go round and round here. It is pathetic the level of
reliability acceptable in the workplace today. I have been told by a number
of different people, "Just a minute, I'm rebooting my PC right now." when I
wanted things done. Casual, matter of fact. 

But people _do_ accept that. So, when MIS fails to deliver what is asked
for, a user gives up nothing by going to an unreliable solution. That is
because they didn't expect it to be reliable in the first place. As
rebooting becomes more acceptable, and PC platforms become less flakey, the
AS/400 will lose more and more ground. 

> I wonder why?  My former employer had $70K worth of hardware and software
> lying around the office not being used because IBM convinced them to invest
> in "CallPath", they also had a telephone switch that was _FAR_ more than they
> needed for the same reason.  IBM "suckered" them in, and then gave no leads
> or support for the application after they had made the capital investment.  I

Well, if IBM failed to perform their agreed upon implementation plan, sue
'em. But if, as is more likely, your employer went into the purchase
without any form of implementation plan and simply bought a shiney toy,
then the fault lies at home. 

At some point a company has to become responsible for running it's own
business.

> disagree that new technologies are ignored, and successful technologies
> _NEVER_ become "flavor of the month".  I think that the majority of us are
> just waiting to see if JAVA becomes a successful technology.  Midrange
> developers are slow to adopt new technology because it is _OUR_ systems that
> run 90% of the world's business -- a trust that is _NOT_ to be taken lightly
> (and the business world is notoriously conservative).  "C" failed, GUI is
> failing, "CASE" (while still providing benefits) hasn't lived up to its
> promise, just what _ARE_ we supposed to "jump on" next?

Well, I would suggest NT! Because, Dean, if _everyone_ just waits around to
see if a technology becomes a success THEN IT FAILS! So, if IBM introduces
plan after plan to enhance client side development for the AS/400, and each
time AS/400 shops all adopt the "wait and see" attitude, the plans all fail
and all the shops pat themselves on the back for being smart enough to not
jump on that bandwagon. 

   
> We "Midrangers" don't want to end up like our COBOL brethren on the ES/9000
> but, short of taking advantage of new AS/400 technology, nothing else has
> "shown us the money".  The 36,8/E were bad, native OS/400 applications were
> good.  "C" was bad, ILE RPG was good.  CallPath and FAX/400 were bad, TCP/IP

Why not just say, "8088 was good, then it was bad. 80286 was good, then it
was bad, " etc. Times change. Vendors try to sell their products. If a
product line doesn't make a profit, or is replaced by a newer technology,
it fades away. IBM should probably be expected to try to sell their
products. 

Maybe midrangers will never get off the fence. Maybe they will always be
"wait and see." If so, I feel the demise of the midrange is not far off.
The next decade will see a major decline in market share. 

But I think IBM is trying to fix that by bringing new blood to the midrange
job market.

> Yes, but this speaks to the "mix and match" nature of PC hardware and
> software.  I'd say that the successful GUI AS/400 developer will make their
> applications work as plug-ins to a major browser, and make the browser
> developer handle the hardware differences.

That would make them a prime candidate for Java.

> Agreed to some degree, but I think that most midrange developers with which I
> am familiar will "jump on" this once it's proven.  I am, however, familiar
> with a plethora of persons that fit your "don't want to change" mode.  The
> skillset in this market will certainly be interesting after the Y2K "crisis"
> is over...

My company is leveraging the fact that many AS/400 shops will be slow to
move. We are developing a new version of our product using Java, while
continuing our RPG implementation. Perhaps this will help to put a couple
of the fence sitters out of business.

> The sad thing is, $200M is a small portion of the annual budget.  It's like
> AIDS vs. Breast Cancer research -- why spend an exponential amount on AIDS
> research (a disease caused by personal choice) over breast cancer (which is
> nobody's fault and affects _FAR_ more people)?  I'd rather see IBM spend a
> _LOT_ more money on JAVA than I would see them spend _ANY_ more money on ILE
> RPG...

Well, it would surprise me to find they were spending anywhere near that
much on RPG. My guess would be the spending on RPG is a small fraction of
that. 

It's easy to bitch that IBM isn't spending enough, or doing enough of this
or that. But they are doing something. More than anyone else in the world.
I think it better to recognise that today IBM spent several hundred
thousand dollars to promote the acceptance of a technology which can
enhance the future of the AS/400. That is in addition to money spent on
enhancing the AS/400 directly and advertising it. 

> Dean Asmussen
 

Chris Rehm
Mr.AS400@ibm.net

How often can you afford to be unexpectedly out of business?
Get an AS/400.
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