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  • Subject: RE: VRPG And/Or Java
  • From: "Chris Rehm" <Mr.AS400@xxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:08:31 -0400






        BobCozzi @ ibm.net
08-27-97 01:04 PM
To:     Mr.AS400 @ ibm.net, midrange-l @ midrange.com
cc:      
Subject:        RE: VRPG And/Or Java

>Java is still new. It doesn't do stuff that RPG does. I like Java and the 
>idea of Java. And, I don't not use SEU or SDA for development. Heck, I 
>wrote my own windows-based development tools!

Yes, Java is certainly new. It is not plausible at all to think of Java as
an alternative to RPG coding right now. By the way, I haven't ever used
your development tools but I am happy they are on the market. I enjoy
coding with Code/400 because it helps to utilize strengths of the
different components. I (and I suspect you) like the idea that Java will
further our ability to take advantage of the different strengths of
different machines in our installs.

>What I believe is that AS/400 developers do not want to do it all 
>themselves. They want IBM to build it into RPG, DDS and CL, and then give 
>it to them for free. While Java is "free" it does not do stuff without
the 
>AWT. Each AWT has or will have subtle differences. I hope the AWT toolbox 
>for the AS/400 does GUI.  I don't believe AS/400 developers want to build 
>routines and tools that they are used to having IBM give them with their 
>products.

>In my experience, existing AS/400 customers do not want to buy stuff that 
>IBM doesn't "give" them. Case in point, IBM just can't seem to move 
>CODE/400. And my product, CodeStudio was priced at about 1/3 the price of 
>Code/400 and I shipped just under 1,000 copies. I don't have the numbers
on 
>similar products by other vendors, but I know they have similar issues.

You ain't kidding. Let me emphatically agree, Bob. But I think there are
some important things to consider here. 

IBM has identified this issue. This issue is what is killing the AS/400.
IBM can't get third party support for AS/400 development tools because 400
buyers won't buy them. IBM couldn't bundle because of the consent decree. 

So what is happening now? the OS is being bundled with the hardware, Java
and Notes are being bundled with the OS. Java and Notes development tools
exist outside the AS/400 arena and are competative. Applications developed
for these environments on any platform will run on the AS/400, so IBM has
found a way to bring developers to the AS/400 (even if those developers
don't know what one is).

So, any guy can download the JDK, or buy VisualAge for Java for $85
(street) and download the AS/400 tookit and be in business developing Java
applications and applets for the 400. Now, the enterprise builder is much,
much more expensive, but I suspect that we will see some changes on that
over the next two years.

>RPG is only part of the answer. There is DDS, there is CL, and there is 
>database. Where do these languages fit in? Is there a 100% conversion to 
>Java for these?

Yes, there is 100% conversion. IBM has promised 100% Pure Java access to
all AS/400 objects. 

>Well, I suppose German is faster to talk in than English, unless of
course, 
>you don't know German.

;-)

The analogy is a little flat, though. Development in OO languages can be
many times as fast as using procedural languages. If you are the average
MIS shop with a two year backlog of programs to write, it might be time to
learn German.

>Perhaps, if Java "sticks". But the skill of the business developer (i.e., 
>the RPG programmer) will continue to be easier to find than a Java
business 
>developer for quite some time.

Well, if Java doesn't stick, there isn't any future in RPG anyway.
Development and platform independance are the only way to get/keep the
AS/400 abreast of other platforms in the GUI arena. Developers just don't
run out and develop new apps for the AS/400 using flashy front ends. 

>Right now, everybody at IBM is involved in Java. And if they're not, they 
>want to be. I think this is largely due to boredom on their part. I mean, 
>how interesting is SEU to someone with a BS in computer science?  New
stuff 
>is usually of interest to true systems programmers (like the folks in 
>Toronto) and system programmer wannabes.

I think it is due to two reasons: 1. Self preservation, 2. excitement.

Why has the AS/400 division (or IBM as a whole) not grown anywhere near as
fast as the computer industry? Because so much of the new market is driven
by buyers who don't care about substance. The AS/400 cannot compete in
these areas because these buyers don't have a clue about down time. Why
does IBM try to play down the speed of the the AS/400 CPU chip? Because
the majority of today's new buyers are too stupid to know that MHz is not
what determines horsepower. 

The AS/400 _must_ be able to compete in all the same flash and gloss areas
that NT can. Notes and Java are the only way that can happen. This gives
the AS/400 everything that NT has to offer, but much much more. If I
worked at Rochester or Toronto this would make me very enthused. 

>Well, I agree with your thinking, but I don't agree with the premise. I 
>think IBM has, in the past, simply reacted to what the others in the 
>industry were doing. I believe they were doing a lot of "me too" and 
>"anything but what the other guy is doing" rather than leading. Today 
>there's still some of that, but no where near what it was.

I don't mean to say that IBM's efforts were leading. Envy/400, VisualAge
Smalltalk, C++, RPG, and Java, are all efforts to bring to the 400 items
that exist in other segments. However, AS/400 shops just can't grasp it.
Shop after shop installs tens of thousands of dollars of PCs and run 5250
emulation on them. Not because it is necessary, since IBM has made
development tools available for years to build distributed apps, but
because they think that GUI thing is just a passing fad.

>On the contrary, the "tools" are SEU/PDM/SDA, etc. I have moved on from 
>those legacy things years ago. The Language, is just a language. It is
not 
>the tool. A "move" is a move is a move is a move. Just because I can code 

It isn't just the legacy tools. It is the language, and the
implementation. First, because of code reuse and inheritance, developing
in an OO language like Smalltalk or Java is much, much easier and faster
than in a procedural language. Second Java is directed toward developing
graphic applications where the app runs on the AS/400 and the screen is
run (since GUI requires attention from a processor) at the client. No
language or implementation has existed before now that allows for what
Java offers to the AS/400. A programmer can develop on a PC an application
that runs using the AS/400 as the processor and the Network Station as the
monitor. For the first time, the developer doesn't have to figure out what
to move where. 

Java is new. It isn't just a language, it is a concept of application
development and implementation. If you think of it as just another
language, that means you should spend more time learning what it is and
what it means. 

Okay, one more bombshell. The San Fransisco Project. Application
frameworks that come from the Taligent investment are being released in
Java. This means that Java developers can cut 40% of their development
time and build industrial strength applications. Now, SFP frameworks were
supposed to be made available to all OO languages (C++, Smalltalk, and
Java) but only one of those means that the applications will run on
AS/400s and System 390s. The others will simply use the host machine as a
file server and SQL processor.

>(not always, but usually) makes stuff that works. And as you say in your 
>tag line... "You have to ask yourself, How often can I afford to be 
>unexpectedly out of business?"

If enough buyers gave that some thought, I don't think we'd have any
concerns about the AS/400s market share. But they don't.




Chris Rehm
Mr.AS400@ibm.net
You have to ask yourself, "How often can I afford to be unexpectedly out of 
business?" 
Get an AS/400.
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