Re: The Truth About EGL -- WEB400

Cole,

I'm glad you brought up the topic of COBOL. I was a former COBOL programmer under MVS (now Z/OS) and OS/400 (now i5/OS). If EGL generates COBOL, is that the type of COBOL that will run under under i5/OS, or is it specifically geared for other operating systems? And is the COBOL user interface still terminal based, or Web browser? I did a little digging in the EGL documentation at IBM's developerworks site, but wasn't sure about the answer to this question.

Nathan.

----- Original Message ----
From: Cole Gantz <colegantz@xxxxxxxxx>
To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries <web400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 12:51:21 PM
Subject: Re: [WEB400] The Truth About EGL

Bob,

Thank you for continuing to mention COBOL. I feel so alone watching
this list with everyone always talking about RPG. I've been watching
this conversation with interest and I would love to check out EGL and see
how we might fit this in our COBOL shop.

Does anyone have a good place to start to learn how to work with EGL?
I'm using version 6 of the Rational tool.

Cole Gantz
Glatfelter Insurance Group

----- Original Message ----
From: Bob Cancilla <bob.cancilla@xxxxxxxxx>
To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries <web400@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 2:23:12 PM
Subject: Re: [WEB400] The Truth About EGL

Mike,

I can't really comment too much on this until our January 2008
announcements
are public. I will be happy after our announcement to discuss and
debate
your point. I've been a major part of developing our strategies for
System i
since Rational got responsibility for the compilers and development
tools on
March 1, 2007. I'm quite sure that some people will be upset with us
but
most will see exactly what we are doing and why. Protecting our
customers
investment in RPG and COBOL and providing multiple paths forward are
the key
to what you will see. I keep mentioning COBOL, as believe it or not
there
is a very large COBOL community in the System i market.

On Dec 18, 2007 10:57 AM, Crump, Mike <Mike.Crump@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Bob,

Can't agree more. However, Aaron's last paragraph points to a

critical

issue for me. As I have said repeatedly the enemy of the System i

right

now is IBM's software group. They are killing us.

Michael Crump

Manager, Computing Services
Saint-Gobain Containers, Inc.
1509 S. Macedonia Ave.
Muncie, IN 47302
765.741.7696
765.741.7012 f

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-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx

[mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]

On Behalf Of Bob Cancilla
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:48 PM
To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries
Subject: Re: [WEB400] The Truth About EGL

Aaron,

Something many people often overlook is the simple fact that

regardless

of
what language you use to develop in, the total cost of owning an i5
machine
is dramatically lower than alternatives. As a customer running

between

4
and six i5 machines with a staff over 27 developers we had one person
devoting less than 1/3 of his time to i5 administration. Our Windows
group
grew from 2 people to over 20 people. As AIX was introduced we ended

with 4 people providing administrative support.

As I look out on the i5 community as an IBM'r with a much broader

view

point
I see customers who have ZERO dedicated administrators. The darn

thing

just
runs itself. Many i5 customers running 3rd party ISV based

applications

have absolutely no technical support on site and rarely need

assistance

with
the machine. It just sits there and runs.

Not only is the TCO extremely low what other platform allows you to
start
out with a model 515 and scale all the way up to a 595 with no

changes

in
your applications or environment or add new staff to support growth?

It is quite simply an awesome platform. Many of the reasons that

people

give for moving to other languages are not technically oriented but

are

a
matter of satisfying themselves for numerous reasons that they are
protecting their company's investment in software.

On Dec 18, 2007 7:46 AM, Aaron Bartell <albartell@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Thanks for posting Bob. Based on your last comment:

<Bob>IBM's position is clear, we offer two very distinct paths to

modern

Web
development: Java and EGL. The System i is computer platform that
supports
many other alternatives and those choices are also available to our
customers. We hope customers choose the IBM path...</Bob>

It appears as though there is awkward alignment between the

software

and

hardware divisions, because Java/EGL carry a mantra of platform
independence. What does System i hardware offer the shop that is

looking

to
move on from RPG and lessen costs overall (i.e. moving to

potentially

more

effiecient development with EGL and moving their application stack

a

high
powered, less expensive, Wintel/Linux server).

Being that the applications are running in an OS agnostic app

server

(WAS/Tomcat/Geronimo/etc), and being that those app servers don't
necessary
have any intimate connections to the OS/DB that would make it

intriguing -

why would you envision people staying on System i5 hardware?

Maybe a better question to ask would be, how is the IBM software

division

helping to sell *new* System i5 hardware to *new* customers? One

thing I

could see as a benefit is the ability to have many LPARs that are
scaleable
past what an Enterprise Wintel machine can support.

Aaron Bartell
http://mowyourlawn.com

-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx

[mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]

On

Behalf Of Bob Cancilla
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:25 AM
To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries
Subject: Re: [WEB400] The Truth About EGL

Trevor,

The facts are the facts. We have a significant population of RPG
developers
and customers have a huge inventory of RPG applications. RPG has a
healthy
future for at least 10 years. I cannot see beyond that point. It

also

a
fact that we are seeing a major decline in RPG programmers with the

bulk

of
the population nearing retirement age and very few new young people
entering
the population. This is not my view point, look at Gartner and

other

analysts. Can we turn this around? Should we turn this around? I

can

assure you that IBM and I myself are committed to insuring that we

protect

our customer's investment in RPG and that is a fact. We are taking

some

specific steps to insure that we can provide that investment

protection on

an ongoing basis. I will talk much more about this after our

January

announcement when I am free to talk about our repackaging of System

tools
and compilers.

Trevor I do not know the future of RPG. I see what I see in the

market

which is a decline in the number of programmers and an increase in

the

number of customers asking us to help them migrate to other

technologies.

You can absolutely be assured that as long as customers continue to

use

RPG
and want to use it, that we will support and enhance it.

As far as EGL goes, I think folks should begin to use it along with

RPG,

not
in place of. I've looked carefully at the requests for an RPG

based

Web

UI
and feel that EGL meets the requirements that customers have set

forth

in

this area. There certainly was elegance and simplicity in one

language

that
could do it all and that is also a fact. Unfortunately I do not

see

that

day coming back anytime soon. I think it is now a time where you

must

pick
multiple tools to get the job done. EGL is one choice, it is the

IBM

recommended strategic choice. There are most definitely

alternative

solutions available today from other vendors and/or the open source
community.

Choices are based on our customers budgets, staffing constraints,

and

demands of the business as well as the customer's tolerance of

risk.

IBM's
position is clear, we offer two very distinct paths to modern Web
development: Java and EGL. The System i is computer platform that
supports
many other alternatives and those choices are also available to our
customers. We hope customers choose the IBM path...

On Dec 18, 2007 6:41 AM, Trevor Perry <trevor@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Bob,

This paragraph is the reason why people consider that you are

saying

RPG

is
dead. While you may not use the words, your intent is clear.

Out here in the real world, customers are not universally asking

for

migration from RPG. There are many customers who wish to leverage

their

investment in RPG and their staff, and would love to see you

extend

RPG

beyond a green screen language.

And, btw, thanks for your offlist reply to my question from this

weekend.

I
appreciate your consideration, and I appreciate you speaking for

IBM.

Trevor

On 12/18/07 9:24 AM, "Bob Cancilla" <bob.cancilla@xxxxxxxxx>

wrote:

Look RPG is an outstanding language and better than it has ever

been

at

the

V5R4 level of the language and will be even better at V6R1 and

beyond,

but

facts are facts. It is an old language and no amount of

wishing

or

marketing will turn it into a popular modern language. RPG as

said

before

has at least a strong 10 year life, maybe much longer. It is

however

on

the

decline. Just look around your shop. How many young people

(20's

or

even

30's) do you have in the shop? Who is teaching RPG? or COBOL

for

that

matter.

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Bob Cancilla
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IBM Rational Tools System i/z Strategy/Enablement
email: rcancill@xxxxxxxxxx
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Bob Cancilla
System i Software Evangelist
IBM Rational Tools System i/z Strategy/Enablement
email: rcancill@xxxxxxxxxx
--
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