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Joe--Love you and all, but believe you're way off base here and tilting at me. Can't say am sorry for standing up with an informed opinion when you blasted away at some others. Have been away from the lists, but please don't think that means will let unknowledgeable comments go by without saying something. Definitely not a noob here, as evidenced by midrange list archive posts referenced today from almost a decade ago.
Wow, Jerome. You're turning out to be exactly the kind of person that thisperson was talking about: http://beust.com/weblog/archives/000382.html
Not "turning out" to be any "kind of person" and don't fit in the jacket you're sewing. Just someone who is a bit knowledgable from actual experience.
Note that this is from someone who LOVES Ruby and Rails.
Claims to love, but then shows in many ways they don't get what Rails is trying to do and are really just trying to stir up their own publicity. At least they seem to have used the tool, but again they are criticizing based on their own bias. Where did someone say that it was poised to go "mainstream"? This person can't seem to get their blog to display in the width of a standards-based browser window. As a user, just love to scroll back and forth horizontally in order to read each sentence. When people start asserting "The truth is... " you pretty much know they have an ax to grind.
You're mad because I'm not drinking the RoR koolaid, and because of that you start calling names.
Nowhere was it said that I'm mad (not the case, smiling while writing this) nor were any names called. If they were in your mind, please point those instances out. All of this is ironic and very amusing as a decade ago you were able to see the good in a younger Java when most of your peers were writing it off with the same sort of contrived arguments. You're claiming to like Rails while cherrypicking what to you are oddities and warning against it. Can you see the hilarity?
I have CONSISTENTLY said that I like RoR, and have just cautioned that it isn't ready for prime time. In my experience, the only person who would dispute such a position would be a zealot. Does that apply here?
Hardly, and who's calling names, albeit in a question? My "zealot" stance has merely been to say that before attempting to slag something against one's own biases, one should take the time to understand it and its culture a bit and figure out what they are trying to do. Believe what dhh was pointing out and flipping off was exactly what you're doing, which is damning his creation in comparison to "enterprise-level" things you know without knowing his creation for its merits.
Kind of like JVM bashers of yore. They couldn't see Sun had created a miniature version of a MI that could be ported anywhere, and that as advancing technology changed the world, that would become more useful because of the efforts of people who did see it and cared. Do they see it now? Mostly not, but people who do have replaced them. Sometimes powerful people have to retire before progress happens.
I'm certainly not trying to bend the goals of RoR; I'm just making sure nobody else does. I'm making it clear to folks who don't have the time to dig underneath the hype that RoR is NOT an enterprise- ready application stack like J2EE or ILE as the zealots would have you believe. And if you say it is, then as Ricky would say to Lucy, "you got a lot of 'splainin' to do". Because even RoR proponents will tell you it is missing major pieces that would qualify it as an enterprise stack.
There it is again. If you're trying to compare it to an "enterprise- level stack" then you're bending it. And that's not calling a name, it's identifying behavior. Looking around through this accumulating stack of stuff, can see the only person who brings up the "enterprise- level" requirement is you. That makes your behavior (not you) that of an anti-zealot in search of a target, and it's not me, my friend. As you well know, I'm a generalist, and that's why I'm actually trying it out and learning about it.
Another poster says a couple of factual things (RoR is gaining mindshare, basically) and you go off on an "enterprise-level" rant making personal attacks on a young kid who has had some success and is a bit brash for your taste. And then another, and then another. Whatever, can overlook that as know you to be a good person with plenty of real knowledge, too. But have to say something about it, for now. If it keeps up, will decide it's not worth it, soon, and that will be too bad, but it will get me back to productive work on my overnights.
Rails is a framework and culture that is approachable and that leads you while learning about it down a path to creating a lightweight, agile, maintainable web app which can be fairly easily evolved over time. The culture rejects the complex inanities (please tell me you haven't seen 'em created by actual programmers in Java or ILE) of big systems that take a long time to get off the ground and then if/when they do don't meet current user needs or evolve to meet them easily in favor of incremental user-based testing-driven design and evolution.
When Java or ILE were two years old, what were their "enterprise- level" stacks like?
As to the concept of "enterprise-level" being a term for "someone like me" that's probably true, but only incidentally. It so happens that I *AM* an enterprise-level programmer by dint of some 30 years of experience. Does that make me a better programmer than a non-programmer? Uh, yeah, it does, Jerome. Gee, go figure. In fact, just about everybody on this list is a better programmer than a non-programmer.
Were you born a programmer? Neither was I or anyone else here or elsewhere. Can you point out anywhere that anyone other than you is putting this "non-programmer" stuff out about Rails?
from http://rubyonrails.org
"Ruby on Rails is an open-source web framework that's optimized for programmer happiness and sustainable productivity. It lets you write beautiful code by favoring convention over configuration."
Are you reading my posts or just responding?
if you're a non-programmer, there's little chance you'll get very far with Rails, imo, and if you do, by then you're a programmer there's a lot for a programmer to learn in there
I would think this is self-evident. There is no tool that will give a non-programmer the experience that the vast majority of people on this list have.
Right. Whoever's going to learn is going to do it with their own effort, and possibly with the help of a community if they expect to gain traction. From what I've seen, Rails has a really good community. All of us can learn from a new perspective, if we keep an open mind and take the time to understand it. Experience with a closed mind is pretty much useless as time marches on and it goes stale.
Non-programmers can't code the intricacies of an MRP generation, or a multi-leaved price lookup, or a finite forward scheduler. They don't understand Kerberos, or localization, or two-phased commits. They don't know what a race condition is, or serialization, or indeed just about anything that is required to write real world applications. All they can do is depend on the tool, and RoR just ain't there, kiddo.
Very tired and boring. "Non-programmers" (again your thing) are _people_ and some of them want to learn more about programming, like you or I did and maybe still do. Some may even want to learn about those "real world" things, eventually, like you did. If that's not ok, then where will the world get new programmers?
Have you seen me bashing any language, environment or person here? Nope, just behaviors.
If you don't like a technology, leave it alone, especially if you aren't yet knowledgeable. And don't say how you like it, but then talk out of the other side of your mouth about how it doesn't meet your requirements when it isn't trying to, 'cause that's bending its goals. Red Herrings like what happened with Struts apps are just that. Those people were more ready for what came after and were faced with decisions about what to do next. Meet it where it presents itself, or you'll look like you're defending your position, which is a pretty unattractive way to look.
I've looked at the list of Ruby applications. It's about what I'd expect from a framework. Some very nice but almost uniformly lightweight web-based applications. Shopping carts, e-zines, content management systems. EXCEPT for the user interface, few of them would tax the abilities of even a junior RPG programmer. Maybe the follow-me map application, I don't know. But for sure there isn't a single batch balancing application among them.
We don't need no stinking batches! It's a lightweight framework for creating web applications! If it doesn't meet your needs, don't use it. If you don't know about it, don't slag it or "protect" people from it, either find out about it if it interests you or don't. Can I help you with understanding what those two words meant one more time? He had them in English. imo, they weren't intended literally, but just to say buzz off if you're trolling and not with us in making things better, and that's all. It was done to get a laugh from like- minded people at a conference!
So as long as you understand that MY take on what an enterprise level system is has little to do with how quickly I can knock out yet another "personal information management system" and far more to do with integrated, flexible, configurable applications that run businesses, then I say be my guest. And as soon as you get your first MRP generation written, let me know.
So MRP generation is the test of usefulness for all platforms? You're making me laugh. It's been done, is now very much sewn up by turf- protecting opolists, and is sort of like basic accounting software at this point in many ways. Have you noticed that services are what's happening?
The interesting stuff is small and evolving, and if it catches, it better be able to scale. It's not big and "enterprise-level," but you don't seem to want to talk about it, just to warn against the hype with anti-hype. Point out some hype and we might take your opinions more seriously.
Peace, --Jeromeas usual, the comments attached to such an article are where the good stuff is...
Screwdrivers suck! Hammers rule! Screwdrivers will never be the right tool for any job. Hammers are the best and always will be the best, no matter what the situation. Screwdrivers are *clearly* better than hammers you old "enterprise" fool. HAH! who the hell uses hammers anymore! LOL. They're archaic and complicated! Very old school, very primitive. They can't even SCREW!
From: Jerome Hughes Joe-- Starting to get the idea that the reason the idea of one slide with two words on it upsets you so is that you're one of the people he was addressing. Not meaning to put words in his mouth, but believe it was those who are attempting to either... a) bend the goals of _his_ framework to _their_ needs without taking time to understand its goals b) say that _his_ framework "is absolutely not yet ready for prime time" when it really just isn't fitting their needs as they have them defined, at "enterprise-level" which is typically really just code for "the order of qualified individuals like me" Personally find that candor refreshing and believe that it's one of the reasons there's as much goodness there in so short a time. If this sampling isn't evidence of prime time for web applications, what would it take to convince you that it is? http://rubyonrails.org/applications-- This is the Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries (WEB400) mailing list To post a message email: WEB400@xxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/web400 or email: WEB400-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/web400.
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