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Microsoft isn't going away. That IS the reality.  If they WERE fading then
I'd never have to make a case for not using Microsoft technologies: the fact
that they would be going away would take care of that.  But Microsoft is
here to stay and although they continue to lose a little market share here
and there, they are the 800 pound gorilla. Have to be reckoned with.

But, reconciling that reality with the fact that our existing customer base
is all midrange is the challenge.  They (our customers) are looking to other
companies who have "slicker" interfaces so the question, becoming "age old"
now, is how to address their needs AND also expand our reach beyond the
midrange world (As misguided as the marketplace is. There still hasn't been
a wholesale adoption of the iSeries as THE server platform, even though I
may think the iSeries IS THE server platform).  So Java gives us the most
platform flexibility.  We can deploy to the iSeries (making our existing
customers happy) and sell to new customers running Linux or (gasp) Windows
and make them happy as well.

But Java/.JSP/HTML development is a lengthy process.  I can knock out a
relatively complex 5250 program, from scratch, in a few hours.  With Java
that can take a full day or more.  We are getting better at it, but when you
factor in the cross-browser, cross-platform capabilities, it takes a while.
Yeah, that is an "apple and oranges" comparison: Writing for a single
platform, single OS (5250) isn't the same as writing a cross platform app
but productivity IS an issue.

However, Microsoft is so dominant in the market that there are a great
number of IDE's and tools that can make .net development a relative "snap".
Plenty of controls and plug-ins as well.  So, from a "slickness" standpoint.
Microsoft has it.

I use Dreamweaver and Eclipse for Web/Java development and it just isn't the
same.  Can I drag and drop a Field object from a Table object and position
it in an HTML form while the servlet code required to reference that data is
generated?  Not that I know of.  Can I encapsulate business rules in an
object that references data and be able to drag and drop it on a form?  Not
that I know of. I can do that with .net IDE's (the one we have looked at was
from EduPoint http://www.edupoint.com/products/revelation_technology.html )
Nothing "meaty" on their web-site but it is a very cool IDE.  Actually, it
is way more than an IDE but that is the best description of what I have
seen.

We have made the decision to do something other than RPG, but now it is all
about productivity.  Time to market. So we are feeling some pressure that
our Java approach, while meeting our iSeries/cross platform requirements ,
may be "slower" because  of the development environment challenge that a
cross-platform/cross-browser/cross-web server application engenders. There
is no quick and easy way to scale that mountain.

That was the  basis, I think, of looking at a .net approach by management.

Pete


-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]On
Behalf Of Walden H. Leverich
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 10:18 AM
To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries
Subject: RE: [WEB400] Linux LPAR running Sun Java System Active
ServerPages:Issuch a thing possible?


Pete,

Keep in mind too, you asked about ASP, and now you're mentioning .NET. These
are two different animals. Roughly akin to asking if you could run RPG/400
code on a PC, and then talking about RPG/IV and ILE.

It's no secret here that I'm a pro-MS kind of guy, however, what do you mean
by "evaluate the REALITY of Microsoft's..."? Are you questioning that
they're in the market to stay?

FWIW, here's my take on the issue. Pick Java/JSP or .NET/ASP is doesn't
matter. Both are very powerful, robust, enterprise ready toolsets that are
here to stay. If I had to put a % on it, I'd say that as time moves forward
you'll find 40-45% on MS tools, 40-45% on Java and all the others tools
(PHP, ColdFusion, Perl, etc.) combined will account for the remaining 20-10%
of the market.

If you've already made a decision to go w/Java great! I don't see a reason
to change. As for your president finding a cool .NET tool, what is it? I'm
sure the Java world has a similar tool.

-Walden


________________________________

From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Pete Helgren
Sent: Wed 21-Apr-04 11:02 AM
To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries
Subject: RE: [WEB400] Linux LPAR running Sun Java System Active
ServerPages:Is such a thing possible?



Thanks Walden,

I forgot about the "rest of the story" with .asp (COM).

We continue to evaluate the reality of Microsoft's presence in the
marketplace .vs. being more open and platform neutral with our development.
We headed down a Java path then were confronted with some learning curve
issues that seemed to indicate that sticking with RPG might make sense
(although we lose platform neutrality).  We sorted through the options and
decided that Java WAS the right direction but on some "immediate need"
projects we would use RPG.  Now the company President and VP of Marketing
have become enamored with a .net based tool that is very cool, very
productive but undermines our existing strategy of platform neutrality (and
we can't even run it on an iSeries).  That is what triggered the question.

Just when we think it is safe to proceed, some "new thing" appears that
distracts us (well, at least some of us)

Thanks for weighing in.

Pete


-----Original Message-----
From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]On
Behalf Of Walden H. Leverich
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 8:04 AM
To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries
Subject: RE: [WEB400] Linux LPAR running Sun Java System Active Server
Pages:Issuch a thing possible?


The animal exists (http://wwws.sun.com/software/chilisoft/) and it looks
like it's the chilisoft package, I guess Sun bought Chilisoft. However, I
think you'll hit two problems:

1) I don't see, and doubt there is, a version for Power-based machines.
Linux, yes, but you need Linux on Power.

2) The power of ASP isn't in it's native language, but in it's ability to
access COM objects, be they ones you write (business logic in VB, C++,
etc.), MS provided ones (Word, Excel, MSXML, etc.) or third party ones
(ASP.Mail, FileUpload, Bob's Big COM Object, etc.) Since you're not likely
to see an implementation of these objects on Java anytime soon I think the
theory is better than the reality.

Having said that, if you were looking to write _new_ code using ASP
developers in a Java environment this might be an option. There is nothing
you can do in ASP w/COM that you can't do in ASP w/Java Objects. Of course
it's all done differently, so they'd have to learn a new object model. And
if they're going to learn that much new stuff, you might as well teach them
JSP too.

Oh and note the requirements. It's not "linux" it's "Linux with kernel 2.4
and GLIBC 2.2.5. The Linux world is getting _so_ complex it's not funny.
Imaging an iSeries program (not one from IBM) that ran on OS/400, as long as
it was V5R1 with PTF SF123455 and MF98765 and not SF11212. Uggghhhh!

-Walden

________________________________

From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Pete Helgren
Sent: Tue 20-Apr-04 7:32 PM
To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries
Subject: [WEB400] Linux LPAR running Sun Java System Active Server Pages:
Issuch a thing possible?



So you have an iSeries running a Linux LPAR.  Sun says they have Sun Java
System Active Server Pages 4.0 that will allow active server pages to run on
Linux.  So, can we have an iSeries running .asp pages using Linux in an LPAR
running Sun Java System Active Server Pages 4.0?

Not is this practical, or even recommended.  Is is possible?

Anyone heard of such an animal?

Different mailing list perhaps (Midrange-L)?


Pete Helgren
Timpanogos Technologies, Inc
801.892.9106 x 202



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_______________________________________________
This is the Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries (WEB400) mailing list
To post a message email: WEB400@xxxxxxxxxxxx
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visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/web400
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Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives
at http://archive.midrange.com/web400.



_______________________________________________
This is the Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries (WEB400) mailing list
To post a message email: WEB400@xxxxxxxxxxxx
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visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/web400
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at http://archive.midrange.com/web400.


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