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Microsoft isn't going away. That IS the reality. If they WERE fading then I'd never have to make a case for not using Microsoft technologies: the fact that they would be going away would take care of that. But Microsoft is here to stay and although they continue to lose a little market share here and there, they are the 800 pound gorilla. Have to be reckoned with. But, reconciling that reality with the fact that our existing customer base is all midrange is the challenge. They (our customers) are looking to other companies who have "slicker" interfaces so the question, becoming "age old" now, is how to address their needs AND also expand our reach beyond the midrange world (As misguided as the marketplace is. There still hasn't been a wholesale adoption of the iSeries as THE server platform, even though I may think the iSeries IS THE server platform). So Java gives us the most platform flexibility. We can deploy to the iSeries (making our existing customers happy) and sell to new customers running Linux or (gasp) Windows and make them happy as well. But Java/.JSP/HTML development is a lengthy process. I can knock out a relatively complex 5250 program, from scratch, in a few hours. With Java that can take a full day or more. We are getting better at it, but when you factor in the cross-browser, cross-platform capabilities, it takes a while. Yeah, that is an "apple and oranges" comparison: Writing for a single platform, single OS (5250) isn't the same as writing a cross platform app but productivity IS an issue. However, Microsoft is so dominant in the market that there are a great number of IDE's and tools that can make .net development a relative "snap". Plenty of controls and plug-ins as well. So, from a "slickness" standpoint. Microsoft has it. I use Dreamweaver and Eclipse for Web/Java development and it just isn't the same. Can I drag and drop a Field object from a Table object and position it in an HTML form while the servlet code required to reference that data is generated? Not that I know of. Can I encapsulate business rules in an object that references data and be able to drag and drop it on a form? Not that I know of. I can do that with .net IDE's (the one we have looked at was from EduPoint http://www.edupoint.com/products/revelation_technology.html ) Nothing "meaty" on their web-site but it is a very cool IDE. Actually, it is way more than an IDE but that is the best description of what I have seen. We have made the decision to do something other than RPG, but now it is all about productivity. Time to market. So we are feeling some pressure that our Java approach, while meeting our iSeries/cross platform requirements , may be "slower" because of the development environment challenge that a cross-platform/cross-browser/cross-web server application engenders. There is no quick and easy way to scale that mountain. That was the basis, I think, of looking at a .net approach by management. Pete -----Original Message----- From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Walden H. Leverich Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 10:18 AM To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries Subject: RE: [WEB400] Linux LPAR running Sun Java System Active ServerPages:Issuch a thing possible? Pete, Keep in mind too, you asked about ASP, and now you're mentioning .NET. These are two different animals. Roughly akin to asking if you could run RPG/400 code on a PC, and then talking about RPG/IV and ILE. It's no secret here that I'm a pro-MS kind of guy, however, what do you mean by "evaluate the REALITY of Microsoft's..."? Are you questioning that they're in the market to stay? FWIW, here's my take on the issue. Pick Java/JSP or .NET/ASP is doesn't matter. Both are very powerful, robust, enterprise ready toolsets that are here to stay. If I had to put a % on it, I'd say that as time moves forward you'll find 40-45% on MS tools, 40-45% on Java and all the others tools (PHP, ColdFusion, Perl, etc.) combined will account for the remaining 20-10% of the market. If you've already made a decision to go w/Java great! I don't see a reason to change. As for your president finding a cool .NET tool, what is it? I'm sure the Java world has a similar tool. -Walden ________________________________ From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Pete Helgren Sent: Wed 21-Apr-04 11:02 AM To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries Subject: RE: [WEB400] Linux LPAR running Sun Java System Active ServerPages:Is such a thing possible? Thanks Walden, I forgot about the "rest of the story" with .asp (COM). We continue to evaluate the reality of Microsoft's presence in the marketplace .vs. being more open and platform neutral with our development. We headed down a Java path then were confronted with some learning curve issues that seemed to indicate that sticking with RPG might make sense (although we lose platform neutrality). We sorted through the options and decided that Java WAS the right direction but on some "immediate need" projects we would use RPG. Now the company President and VP of Marketing have become enamored with a .net based tool that is very cool, very productive but undermines our existing strategy of platform neutrality (and we can't even run it on an iSeries). That is what triggered the question. Just when we think it is safe to proceed, some "new thing" appears that distracts us (well, at least some of us) Thanks for weighing in. Pete -----Original Message----- From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Walden H. Leverich Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 8:04 AM To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries Subject: RE: [WEB400] Linux LPAR running Sun Java System Active Server Pages:Issuch a thing possible? The animal exists (http://wwws.sun.com/software/chilisoft/) and it looks like it's the chilisoft package, I guess Sun bought Chilisoft. However, I think you'll hit two problems: 1) I don't see, and doubt there is, a version for Power-based machines. Linux, yes, but you need Linux on Power. 2) The power of ASP isn't in it's native language, but in it's ability to access COM objects, be they ones you write (business logic in VB, C++, etc.), MS provided ones (Word, Excel, MSXML, etc.) or third party ones (ASP.Mail, FileUpload, Bob's Big COM Object, etc.) Since you're not likely to see an implementation of these objects on Java anytime soon I think the theory is better than the reality. Having said that, if you were looking to write _new_ code using ASP developers in a Java environment this might be an option. There is nothing you can do in ASP w/COM that you can't do in ASP w/Java Objects. Of course it's all done differently, so they'd have to learn a new object model. And if they're going to learn that much new stuff, you might as well teach them JSP too. Oh and note the requirements. It's not "linux" it's "Linux with kernel 2.4 and GLIBC 2.2.5. The Linux world is getting _so_ complex it's not funny. Imaging an iSeries program (not one from IBM) that ran on OS/400, as long as it was V5R1 with PTF SF123455 and MF98765 and not SF11212. Uggghhhh! -Walden ________________________________ From: web400-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Pete Helgren Sent: Tue 20-Apr-04 7:32 PM To: Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries Subject: [WEB400] Linux LPAR running Sun Java System Active Server Pages: Issuch a thing possible? So you have an iSeries running a Linux LPAR. Sun says they have Sun Java System Active Server Pages 4.0 that will allow active server pages to run on Linux. So, can we have an iSeries running .asp pages using Linux in an LPAR running Sun Java System Active Server Pages 4.0? Not is this practical, or even recommended. Is is possible? Anyone heard of such an animal? Different mailing list perhaps (Midrange-L)? Pete Helgren Timpanogos Technologies, Inc 801.892.9106 x 202 _______________________________________________ This is the Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries (WEB400) mailing list To post a message email: WEB400@xxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/web400 or email: WEB400-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/web400. _______________________________________________ This is the Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries (WEB400) mailing list To post a message email: WEB400@xxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/web400 or email: WEB400-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/web400. _______________________________________________ This is the Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries (WEB400) mailing list To post a message email: WEB400@xxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/web400 or email: WEB400-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/web400. _______________________________________________ This is the Web Enabling the AS400 / iSeries (WEB400) mailing list To post a message email: WEB400@xxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/web400 or email: WEB400-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/web400.
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